Ok. I ran into someone that claims to train "real protection dogs" alongside their sport dogs using PP methods and ZERO defense work.

They only ever work the dogs in prey, they have had several SchH dogs, one SchH III currently. I have not seen the dogs worked at all and have never witnessed their training methods.

Their basis for stating that they have and are capable of training dogs for actual protection (not just sport) work using PP and only ever working the dogs in prey is that they teach the dogs that humans ARE prey. I don't know how they do this exactly as they were unclear in their explanations in the first place.

I am not stupid, or I would like to think that I am not.. and I have only trained one dog as a PPD, and I had not finished him for lack of experienced helpers where I moved to, for defense work... he had been started in Wi with a helper in defense. But I am not experienced, so perhaps these methods really do work and I'm just naive.

I wanted to post on it and ask all of you wonderfully experienced people your opinions and ideas regarding the "Humans as prey" theory for training PPDs.

The idea of training a dog to view a human as a prey item, not a sleeve as the prey item, if possible, just sounds dangerous to me. I know dogs can be taken to high levels of competition with PP and all prey, but its the equipment, NOT the human, that is the prey item (to my understanding of it)

I'm confused.

I don't know how they condition a dog to fight prey the way a human "prey" would fight. Isn't that the whole point of defense?
two cents.

I bet they are training with some defense and don't even realize it or admit it.

Some people relate to defense in a negative manner, as if you have to break a dog down or beat a dog for defense. ??? I'm confused too.

I've seen mondio dogs who are always in prey becuase they see everything as one fun challenging game. Or by that time they learn to like getting dirty and bitin ghuman flesh. The reaction to real pain is alot more fun then the fake reactions. Aren't dogs smart?!

I would have to say my thoughts ran at first to them not realizing they were working the dogs in defense, but they way they loosely described their training methods with their dogs, which are a Mal, an AB, and a G.Schnauzer/Mal cross (its an interesting looking dog) is that basically every training session starts out when the helper running away.

I know dogs can successfully compete in sport and only ever be worked in prey. But sport and real life fighting a bad guy are very different. If someone is advancing to the point of ignoring your warnings and the dog bouncing around on the end of the leash looking like a demon, chances are he won't just suddenly run away. Der.

In the conversation I had with them, I tried to bring up equipment and they seemed confused when I asked what type of stuff they used. Meaning hidden sleeves, bite bar/no bite bar, jackets, full suits. They insisted that everything they used was "normal training stuff" without really clarifying anything. I encountered them at "my" pet store with their G.S./Mal and began a normal "Wow, interesting dog" conversation that warped into "We teach our dogs that the human is the prey item."

Keep in mind everything they said was just a bunch of words - they had no proof of having a SchH III Mal at home, or an AB for that matter, or that this 14 month old G.S./Mal was in training as anything but a house pet.

They claim to have gotten the idea from looking at a website for a "famous trainer" that specializes in bully breeds. I THINK I know who they are talking about but they had no names to offer.

It's either BS completely, or they have good sport dogs and don't know the difference between a PPD and a sport dog and are making assumptions .. or? I just thought this whole "The human as a prey item" bit was interesting and wanted some thoughts on it. I have heard people that claim to never work a dog in defense, that really do, and people that think they have a PPD that just have a dog playing tug on a sleeve.

Is it possible to work a dog only in prey and make them think that a human is a prey item and have that dog be a reliable PPD? (I don't think it is, but thats me)

It's complete and utter BS.

 Quote: Will Rambeau

It's complete and utter BS.

:laugh: Well so far I seem to have been right in my opinion of their claims. I thought I'd ask as the trainer I know of that uses PP no defense methods has had good sport dogs, and they seemed to have a warped idea of 100% prey work + accels in sport = PPD.

I love this board Keep it comin' guys

I agree with Will. I'd like to work them and see. More than likely what you'd see is a dog going into avoidance the second the pressure comes on.

Although we do use defence from the helper, our club trains with PP. Saying that, I think training a PPD with PP is a lot of crap! It's a counterdicting statement!

 Quote: bob scott

Although we do use defence from the helper, our club trains with PP. Saying that, I think training a PPD with PP is a lot of crap! It's a counterdicting statement!

Well, hearing it from "the man" of PP and Will and Michael too.. I don't feel like such an idiot for not understanding what they were talking about.

Thanks guys!