Can this be the same Mark Tobin from Deleware that VP Elect Biden is sending his puppy to for training (scroll to bottom)?

http://www.k9camptraining.com/index.php

I am amazed that this topic is over seven pages long! Is it really any of our business?

I don't need this blog to help me learn about what is and isn't a good breeder and about GSD. I have owned 6 GSD raised 3 from pups. I adopted 2 and rescuced and placed 3 others. I'm still so surprised at how judgemental people can be without even visiting or knowing the person they are judging. I'm just not made that way. I have shown up at her place unannounced to use her pools, to exercise my GSD and there are always people playing w/ and taking care of the dogs. The Phila. Police dept use her facilities for their dogs. I don't want to debate the matter I just wanted to give my option. I'm sure that all of you love your dogs as much as I love mine and want to see all of them taken care of and treated correctly.

Bern- perhaps you should educate yourself about puppy mills- your posts indicate you don't know very much about them.

You do not need to visit one to know what they are.
A puppy mill is a commercial breeding establishment, here in missouri it's known as the "dog business". The main purpose of a puppy mill is not breed improvement, it's making money- the dogs are basically livestock. They are not pets, and their quality is not as important as their ability to fetch a good price. This isn't a show or performance breeder who breeds one or two litters a year. This is mass production of dogs.

There are different levels of USDA licensing for puppy mills, your friend is licensed for 250 dogs. She sold almost 200 last year. One kennel, almost 200 dogs/puppies. Do you believe this is a good breeder? Maybe you aren't aware of her kennel "wolf den", which is the one licensed with the USDA.
Whether she also makes money running a rehab and/or training or boarding facility doesn't change the fact that she is also a puppy mill. She may have a second business in addition to the commercial business kennel (jolindy), but she still runs a puppy mill.
People taking care of the dogs (with that many she'd have to hire kennel help) doesn't change the fact that the dogs are breeding machines, existing only to make more puppies to sell. She may have very good kennel help, although she was cited for sanitation in her facility.
If you give your opinion, and it's based on incorrect information, probably you should expect debate.
The information is public record, you can verify this stuff yourself.
There's no need to actually visit the place to find out if it's a puppy mill, all you have to look at is the USDA inspection records, and see how many dogs she has, and how many were sold in a year.
Then there's the AKC suspension, but probably you're not too interested in that- it's another negative thing.
vickie

I am going to step in here. It seems that in recent posts on this topic people with legitimate and seemingly informed opinions are being run roughshod over.

The topic of what is and what isn't a "puppy mill" is a difficult one. If you only breed on occasion you do nothing to further the breed. Sorry your good intentions cannot compete with experience, you can't get experience from a couple of litters. Many of the well recognized kennels from Europe have been through the alphabet 2 and 3 times in naming their litters. One very well respected malinois kennel routinely has 20+ puppies on the ground all the time.

In the book "Breeding Dogs" by Whitney he speaks about the need to produce numbers to find out what you are producing.

This should be done collectively in a club or group of interested enthusiasts communicating about the results of the lines they are producing and publishing such information. This just is not done here in the US. It is simply left to the inventiveness of the individual to discover. It can't be found without doing it and a occasional litter won't cut it.

Now, I have no idea who the breeder of the VP's dog is, or the conditions under which the dogs are kept, or even if the breeder cares about the GSD. But consider the fact that there may be less responsibility by the one litter hobby breeder than the large scale breeder because the occasional litter cannot produce predictable results. It takes seeing the offspring of one side of a pedigree when bred to a variety of other pedigrees to get a grip on the traits, problems, and drives, and conformation produced and which line of GSD's bred to what other lines work and which ones don't.

I have become tired of the line that says that because so and so only breeds one litter a year that means the pups are better. Usually it means they have no idea what the result will really be and they are hoping their female bred to their male of choice isn't a train wreck. If it is a train wreck and produces crap how many "one litter a year superior quality breeders" are willing and able to shit can their breeding stock they have invested so much time and money into, especially if they are titling their stock to prove them???? I always laugh when I see replacement guarantees from breeders who have one or two females and their stud dog. They replace the train wreck with another train wreck.

Now, I don't care about this particular breeder but many people have the misinformed idea that small time is better and a basic course in genetics tells you that numbers will produce. Numbers with well directed breeding will produce best.

Having experience as a small time occasional breeder in the past I have to say that I was damned disappointed in much I produced. It always seemed that i needed to have a bunch of pups I could keep track of, a bunch of breedings to compare and weigh the good and the bad. But, I found that I could not do it. It would be too consuming.

So, lets not espouse the greatness of the back yard breeders "quality" and call any large scale breeder a filthy "puppy farm" without first hand knowledge of the operation.

I visit restaurants that serve excellent food and I also read the local health department reviews. It is sometimes amazing that a violation will appear even at a well respected restaurant. Yet the last time I got food poisoning was at a back yard BBQ. It didn't make the newspaper because no government agency was watching.

As far as AKC sanctions....who cares. It is the AKC.

So, lets not batter this breeder without first hand knowledge of their operation....by this I mean been there, communicated with them, and saw what they do and saw what thehy produced, and how well they adjusted to the train wrecks every breeder will be faced with.

I hope for the sake of the "breed" that this pup ends up to be a great German Shepherd cause I am sure we'll be hearing about that pup for some time.
As for big breeders or small breeders, the one thing I can say is that both have pros & cons. Let's not pretend that all big time breeders KNOW every pup they produce. I have seen many dogs come from big kennels that have gone through the alphabet 2 or more times and they have produced over and over again "train wrecks" . I think it comes down to the quality of the breeder himself and what he has done with the dogs he breeds and the health background of the dogs.. JMO

 Quote: kevin sheldahl

I am going to step in here. It seems that in recent posts on this topic people with legitimate and seemingly informed opinions are being run roughshod over.

The topic of what is and what isn't a "puppy mill" is a difficult one. If you only breed on occasion you do nothing to further the breed. Sorry your good intentions cannot compete with experience, you can't get experience from a couple of litters. Many of the well recognized kennels from Europe have been through the alphabet 2 and 3 times in naming their litters. One very well respected malinois kennel routinely has 20+ puppies on the ground all the time.

In the book "Breeding Dogs" by Whitney he speaks about the need to produce numbers to find out what you are producing.

This should be done collectively in a club or group of interested enthusiasts communicating about the results of the lines they are producing and publishing such information. This just is not done here in the US. It is simply left to the inventiveness of the individual to discover. It can't be found without doing it and a occasional litter won't cut it.

Now, I have no idea who the breeder of the VP's dog is, or the conditions under which the dogs are kept, or even if the breeder cares about the GSD. But consider the fact that there may be less responsibility by the one litter hobby breeder than the large scale breeder because the occasional litter cannot produce predictable results. It takes seeing the offspring of one side of a pedigree when bred to a variety of other pedigrees to get a grip on the traits, problems, and drives, and conformation produced and which line of GSD's bred to what other lines work and which ones don't.

I have become tired of the line that says that because so and so only breeds one litter a year that means the pups are better. Usually it means they have no idea what the result will really be and they are hoping their female bred to their male of choice isn't a train wreck. If it is a train wreck and produces crap how many "one litter a year superior quality breeders" are willing and able to shit can their breeding stock they have invested so much time and money into, especially if they are titling their stock to prove them???? I always laugh when I see replacement guarantees from breeders who have one or two females and their stud dog. They replace the train wreck with another train wreck.

Now, I don't care about this particular breeder but many people have the misinformed idea that small time is better and a basic course in genetics tells you that numbers will produce. Numbers with well directed breeding will produce best.

Having experience as a small time occasional breeder in the past I have to say that I was damned disappointed in much I produced. It always seemed that i needed to have a bunch of pups I could keep track of, a bunch of breedings to compare and weigh the good and the bad. But, I found that I could not do it. It would be too consuming.

So, lets not espouse the greatness of the back yard breeders "quality" and call any large scale breeder a filthy "puppy farm" without first hand knowledge of the operation.

I visit restaurants that serve excellent food and I also read the local health department reviews. It is sometimes amazing that a violation will appear even at a well respected restaurant. Yet the last time I got food poisoning was at a back yard BBQ. It didn't make the newspaper because no government agency was watching.

As far as AKC sanctions....who cares. It is the AKC.

So, lets not batter this breeder without first hand knowledge of their operation....by this I mean been there, communicated with them, and saw what they do and saw what thehy produced, and how well they adjusted to the train wrecks every breeder will be faced with.

Nice to see someone who's been there cut another breeder some slack. Classy post.

Thanks Kevin!!!

"Given Biden's unfortunate mistake regarding this matter, I sure hope Obama makes a better decision" Does this mean none of us should have GSDs or just the Vice President elect of the US?

Kevin makes some great points. So does Angelique. I think you can be a small time breeder and still have experience. It will take a looooong time, but that's where you know how someone is in it for the love of the breed or not.

There is no way you can make good money producing one or 2 litters per year. But, by doing that, you don't mass produce pups that end up in the wrong hands or shelters. If you produce such small litters per year, but do it over 10-20 yrs, you have the time needed to track the dogs, and see if they are "train wrecks" or not. With 10-20 pups coming out per year, small breeders should be able to track the outcomes of the lines they are breeding and make adjustments. I still don't understand how 200 pups a year would be a better contribution to the breed.