I agree 110% with Alyssa.

This trainer (if you want to use that term) IS an idiot!

There are enough references and videos and guidance from others on this site for you to do basic obedience on your own.

I'm currently working Kaiser on obedience and when, in my mind, he has passed MY tests for obedience - ONLY then will I take him to a formal obedience class and use it for distraction training ONLY.

If the so-called trainer doesn't get it - tell them to take a hike and that your money is better spent elsewhere and that your dog's training comes first and that he will not, and the others in the class should not, be subject to this type of misinformed and ill-conceived training method.

 Quote: jane schellinger

Do you think we are better off taking him out of obedience until he is older then, and just working him on our own?

Squeezing his muzzle isn't my first choice of correction, but when you have someone standing over you and yelling, "do what I showed you", it makes it kind of hard to not do it

When I first had Luc, I took him to an old-school trainers for one-on-one work, b/c he was showing some minor minor minor minor fear aggression (growling in certain situations; I should note now I don't believe he was ever territorially aggressive) and as a GSD none of the 'fluffy' trainers would work with him. I'm not good at confrontation, so here's how I fired them - sorry, it's long, but if it helps. Do what's right for you and your dog, even if it's done wimply by email, but it doesn't sound like you're comfortable with how they're training (and for good reason!).



Hello,

I wanted to let you know that Luc and I will not be attending our lesson at 8 pm tonight, nor do I plan to attend future lessons. I do apologize for the late notice, as I recognize it is inconvenient.

Luc has come a long way since I got him. We’ve worked together and forged a strong bond and partnership, and I’m proud of that. He’s done well with his issues (fear and territoriality), and is accepting of my leadership. A big part of that is the help you’ve given me in terms of how to handle him and how to administer a correction when he displayed aggression. The corrections worked well and he has not shown any territorial aggression in months.

The last class Luc and I attended was quite some time ago, and we haven’t come since, frankly because I’ve been upset at the advice I was given in the class, as I feel it would not only be destructive to the bond and trust Luc and I have, but that it also failed to take into account who Luc is, and my experience level as a handler. I have worked hard to build his confidence.

Luc had mouthed me while I was handling an injured paw – I scruffed him as suggested and he became more upset (but I must note, never bit me during this). I let him go as I can only see fighting over that sort of thing as destructive to our relationship and inconsequential in terms of leadership when he was acting out of pain in part (he also does have feet issues, so pain was not the only factor). After I dropped him he immediately rolled over and showed me his belly – hardly a dominant dog. I was advised that I had been “too female”, and that I needed to keep Luc on a choke chain and pull tab, and take him home, deliberately provoke his aggression, and either throw him (to give him time to reconsider his behaviour) or force/beat him down to display my physical dominance.

Frankly, I’ve always approached working with Luc from a ‘set him up to succeed’ viewpoint, and this to me was setting him up to fail. It also struck me as unfair (particularly given the incident was minor, and I find it worrying that the remedy given for a minor incident was not proportionate), and also as bullying, to be quite frank. Perhaps not with another dog, but with Luc, absolutely.

I recognize I didn’t raise any of this in the class – I wasn’t comfortable, and frankly didn’t know what to think. But it bothered me, and I’ve had the good fortune to find online very dog-savvy people (who aren’t soft on their dogs or anti-correction, please believe me), who all said that the advice was bad, given the level of the original incident, Luc’s personality, and my experience in handling. Several sources said that it was appropriate to deliberately provoke and heavily correct aggression in a very dominant, hard, handler-aggressive dog, but not in a dog like Luc. There was also agreement that an exercise like this should only be attempted by an experienced handler, as there is a lot of room for something to go wrong, and that frankly it was a good way for me to get hurt.

Also, from my own point of view, not only am I too inexperienced of a handler to attempt that sort of thing (assuming it was appropriate to the dog and the dog’s behaviour) but I’m also too inexperienced of a handler to safely use a choke collar on Luc – one reason why I use the prong. (I’m sure you’re familiar with the studies showing the damage and injury caused by choke collars compared to prongs.)

Honestly – all of this just makes me uncomfortable with the advice SCHOOL is offering. As I said, you were a great help to me in teaching me how to train obedience, to handle Luc, and to administer appropriate corrections, but I feel that as I am continuing to do well with Luc working on my own, the useful of Luc and I continuing to go to classes at SCHOOL has run its course.

I should also note that Luc shook the entire class last time we were there, and often seems uncomfortable. I’ve realized I have to pay attention to this; I know you’ve said it is avoidance, and I suppose fear is a form of avoidance, but – he has never displayed that behaviour when I work with him at home or outside. I don’t know why he’s uncomfortable at the facility, but he is, and he performs in a substandard fashion as a result. This has also made me realize that the training fit is not working. I was planning on coming to class tonight to discuss this, but on consideration of Luc’s issues with the physical facility have chosen not to, however I did want to be upfront about why we won’t be continuing classes.

I do want to thank you for all your help, and I know you’ve been working with Steph and Dom and their dogs Trixie and Rocky and that they are just thrilled with how things are going, which I’m so pleased with. I do recognize you both have a lot of dog knowledge and training experience, and I respect that, however I just don’t feel that it is working out for Luc and me.

Thanks,
Jennifer Mullen

Thank you for all the information. I have been searching the topics you suggested and am getting some great information. When we are out on our walks and my GSD gets excited about something (i.e. a stroller that was coming towards us), do you think it is best to switch directions, or to marker train him that this object is ok? I wouldn't describe his behavior as aggressive at this point, just really excited and jumping a little bit. Thanks, I really appreciate all of the input.

Jane

Jane, it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing dichotomy. You can switch directions as well as using marker training to desensitize/neutralize him towards new objects.

Thank you. I am just trying to figure out what the best approach will be for him. I don't want to screw anything up with him. He is perfect in our house and our yard, I just want him to be great outside as well.

I would use the marker training in very controlled situations, at slowly increasing levels of distraction.

Determine how far away new things have to be before he gets all worked up about them, and being slowly working to close that gap.

When you are out on walks, I would walk the other way, so as not to inadvertantly "un-do" your training.

When my guy sees something that gets a reaction, I'll switch directions or have him follow a command he knows so he focuses on me. He used to obsess over things (people or dogs) walking the other direction and would continually turn around for two or three blocks past said distraction. Now, he doesn't even care. We did a full session at WallyWorld the other night, including an after-training tug/play session. The only time he had issues was when a group of eight walked past us, it took me saying "down" twice that time instead of just once. Like the other folks are saying, it just takes some consistent and dedicated effort. I say this often because it's true, I've been training my dog for 13 years and in the time I've been here I've already over-turned more than half of what I knew because they were old school techniques. These folks won't steer you wrong...they might argue with you over nothing, but they won't steer you wrong.