Let me start by thanking you fine folks for sharing your experiences. I have been following this site for some time now and appreciate the wealth of information you have offered.

Two years ago I was quite ignorant on the subject of the working lines of the GSD. I called a breeder inquiring about the purchase of a puppy and was asked how I felt about a mature dog. I consulted my wife and we decided to accept the responsibility of a retired breeder, age 6. This came about after a 2hr interview and a 1hr home visit. Sasha, who is Czech on both sides showed up a few days latter along with a crate. Thank God for crates. We have 2 cats and Sasha needed a little training to assimilate. They are now best friends.

I was told about the differences between working lines and show lines and started to research the subject. I didn't know that I would become totally captivated by this breed. I trained my first dog, a St. Bernard, at the age of 13 straight out of Koehlers book. I had excellent results. By the age of 14, I considered myself to be one fine dog trainer. I trained many other dogs through the years with varying degrees of success. After a few dogs I observed that my best dogs seemed to train themselves. No matter how good I was (and I was not that good, just lucky) I was limited by the the intelligence of the dog. Life is too short to work with dumb dogs.

Then Sasha joined our family and I saw what a properly bred, , properly trained dog could be like. This is a working GSD thread, so I won't ramble on about the girl lying at my side except to say SHE IS MAGNIFICENT! Since I no longer hunt, I have no need for any other breed.

Our vet, who does the local OFA certifications introduced us to Mike Mallet, the breeder he obtained both of his GSD's from and we are now 2nd on his waiting list for a fall puppy, a black sable from Czech/DDR bloodlines. Mike has a fine website, including webcams 24/7. We will be able to watch our pup from birth. I have little doubt that I will have a well bred dog.

After watching some of of Mr. Frawley's dvds I have started learning a new way of training and I like it. I am about to have a fine dog and I don't want to repeat the improper training I have given my other dogs. I am taking this endeavor very seriously. I have plenty of time on my hands since I was forced into retirement because of a bit of trouble with my heart, the result of too many 100hr+ workweeks. I won't be running much, but I have a son who is anxious to start training with me as well as an animal savvy wife who loves this breed as much as I do.

I think I have a good start towards having a fine companion- good breeder, good vet who knows the breed, Leerburg's products (it's nice to buy from someone you can trust, who's not out to rip people off) and this forum.

I would welcome any helpful hints or insight into this breed but I do have some questions. Most importantly, how can I find a competent trainer familiar with this breed in the Flint MI. area? I need one who can properly analyze my dogs drives and advise me as I encounter situations where I am unsure of what to do. I can put great amounts of time and effort into junior's upbringing but I will not pay thousands of dollars to someone else for the privilege of training my dog. On the matter of initial crate training-my wife doesn't want allow a new puppy to be uncuddled. How much play is prudent and how much time must a puppy spend in the crate in the first few weeks. I expect everyone in the family to protect what we have worked so hard to acquire and that includes fourfooters. I want to do some bite training, but I'm not sure if I'm up to it. My helper would be my 32yr old son who has no experience at this but can't wait to get into a space suit and be mauled(he gets it from his mom). Can an intelligent, motivated person learn to do this from the dvds or should I seek out a schutzhund club

On a different note, Sasha, now almost 9yrs old, spent her first 6 years in a kennel making pups, some of whom still work for a living. She gad little experience in a house until us and yes, you can teach an old dog new tricks-many of them. She is no different than me-always learning new ways to amuse us and get a treat or two. She rarely barks although she is very protective and has little interest in toys. Is this a result of living as a kennel dog?

Again, thanks for the information you have already provided and I look forward to hearing from anyone who knows more than I do about these things, and that would be most of you on this forum.
MWS

I won't say that a person couldn't learn to train a dog entirely from DVDs.

Children in isolated areas of third world countries have learned basic math from textbooks alone, and gone on to become brilliant mathmeticians, so I won't pretend it isn't possible.

However, the helper makes or breaks a dog, in bitework. You don't want to be training your helper at the same time you're trying to train a pup. Helpers are trained on experienced dogs, and pups are trained on experienced helpers.

So, having your son as a helper is a far less than ideal scenario. For this, I recommend joining a club.

The next matter becomes then, at what AGE of the pup do you join a club?
Personally, I like joining a club as soon as possible. The ability to talk with other like minded trainers, to see dogs further along in their training being handled and worked, is invaluable to a beginning trainer. Heck, even experienced handlers learn a great deal from other handlers.

Does that mean you have to take the pup and send him on the helper? No. You can take the pup, lay and work puppy tracks, practice puppy obedience and perhaps have a helper do some rag work.
OR you can simply leave the pup at home and go yourself just to watch.

Taking a young pup to the training field can be an excellent method of neutralizing a pup to strange environments, other dogs, other people, etc.

If I had my current dog to do all over again, I would have taken her to training much younger, and begun the OB work much earlier. I waited until 6 months to really begin working OB at the training field, and by then she had developed an attitude of "I come here to lay about, do some tracking, bite a tug and go home". It has been unpleasant to break that attitude.

RE: interest in toys... that is a "drive" that must be fostered. If a dog isn't exposed to toys in early life, it never really learns what they are about, or that they are for playing with. See the thread re: Building Drive (Fetching) for more info.

You can definitely do all the foundation work on your pup on your own. At some point though, you will need an experienced helper to finish the dog. Your son will not be that helper, so a club will probably be necessary.
If you're going to join a club at some point anyway, why not do it now (you needn't actually have a pup in your possession, you know) and start learning by observation?

Let me start you off with an adage that has always paid dividends for me regarding training methods. If it doesn’t make sense to you, it won’t to your dog. Regarding how much time a pup should spend in a crate. I crate trained all of my dogs. In the beginning this was necessary because IMO it is the best way to housebreak a pup. Moreover I would always feed my pup in his crate so it will look forward to being in there, and until it is housebroken leave it there at night and or when someone is not watching it. How much play depends on the pup but don’t force play as most pups want to sleep more than they want to play. If play makes the pup to excited back off until the pup has had some time to wind down. I say that because sometimes rough play can cause a behavior that you might, because of your lack experience, not handle correctly. Regarding bite work and your inexperienced son being your helper. Understand the first few bite work routines your dog experiences will be IMO the most important in his life, in that the results of any mistakes at this time can be a part of the dog for the rest of its training life. I have never understood why at most schutzhund clubs the most inexperienced helpers are working the pups. It should IMO be the other way around. I applaud your son wanting to get involved and you should encourage him but under the supervision of an *experienced* helper. It has been my experience that once a new helper has been doing helper work for a few months they want to begin giving seminars (g). Helper work is not just sticking out an arm or leg but knowing how to read a dog and adjust instantly to what the helper sees. It is about timing and knowing when to stop, go forward, take a step back or quit, and recognizing the dog’s body language and adjust accordingly. IMO you can’t learn this from a DVD. That said you can learn correct presentation, some basic foot work and what not to do. The only way to learn correct helper work is to actually do it while an experienced helper is critiquing you. It’s one thing to describe and or watch how a helper catches a dog in the long bite. It’s quite another watching a dog coming down the field, hell bent for leather towards you knowing your first job is a safe catch, then how best to guide the dog to which side for this effort, while understanding whether to put pressure on the dog and how much or how little. If you want to get involved in schutzhund find a club and go to visit and ask how many of the clubs dogs have earned degrees. The answer to that question will go a long way as to whether you should join.

First, WELCOME!!!!

How exciting for your whole family to be so on board and devoted already.

When you get your new puppy home, you WILL be able to cuddle the heck out of your pup. Mine is in his crate now, but will be out and playing after breakfast and for most of the day and evening. Think of the crate as more of a crib/playpen. It is where the baby goes for naps and when mom and dad have to do something and can’t give the baby undivided attention. It helps with house training as well, but is not a cage to primarily keep a puppy in.

The best thing you can do for both you and the pup is to tether. You can buy a buddy leash (Cindy says they may carry them soon, so hold out if want to&hellip or use just any old leash and tie the pup directly to you. This will develop between you and the pup a VERY close bond and keep the little one out of trouble. If he is attached to you, how much trouble can he get into? You will learn his potty schedule and be able to just walk outside to go; so much easier than when you can so easily forget that the pup in the crate has not gotten out yet. While tethered, the pup does not get the chance to go chew up the kids shoes (GRRRR ), eat the house plants, or dig up the yard. He learns to settle at your feet and follow dad (or mom) around and learn what a good dog does. Also, when the pup is RIGHT THERE all the time, you will get 500 opportunities to do training!

As for bite work and your pup, well that could happen. I didn’t really see anything great about the breeder’s dogs, NOT that the dogs aren’t great, friendly dogs, just that there are NO titles listed and nothing really working anywhere close in the dogs’ lineage that stands out (but then I am not a GSD person, so maybe someone else will&hellip. I don’t mean that as a put down, and I am sure that the pup you get will be great! What this means is that you don’t know if the dog will have the innate ability to work. *As a little side note, we have a purely show line GSD at our club. When the man showed up the first day with zero understanding of any type of training, no genetics in the dog to work and no grace or fluidity of movement to even heel straight (dog or owner), we all told him to just enjoy his dog, and not to get his hopes too high. Within three months, the dog is running blinds, doing very nice bite work, and just in general showing veterans up! We are all so proud (and a little jealous!) of this team. I mention this, because each dog is individual and has the ability to surprise us all. Hell, I recommend that anybody that wants to play with Schutzhund should give it a try for the bonding and training that all dogs will benefit from.

Yes, you and your son COULD do all of it, but that should be your last option. He should be able to physically do all of the work, but that is nowhere near the requirement I have in a helper. IF you were a very experienced trainer and had years behind you and the ability to know and read your dog, AND your dog was very experienced without any issues, I would tell you to go ahead. For a fun analogy, let’s use cars. The two of you are inexperienced drivers; say 16, and mom never let you drive the family car. You are gifted a brand new, mint condition Inferno Red, Dodge Challenger (can you tell what we are buying next? ). The two of you will eventually learn how to drive in it, and the car MAY come out OK after all is said and done. But chances are that both of you may get hurt and the car will probably get all banged up in the process. If you had an old beater (experienced dog), you can bumble your way through not too much worse for wear, and if one of you were a driving instructor and we bring the Challenger back, it could turn out all right (but just about everyone messes up there first dog, I mean car). Do you see what I mean? I have only had one cup of coffee this morning and I have kids yelling and screaming up stairs…

An inexperienced handler with a new puppy NEEDS a VERY experienced helper that can read the dog, do what the pup/dog needs, and tell the handler what to do all at the same time. Hell, I (and just about all of the club members) STILL get yelled at all the time, even those with SCH3 dogs. An experienced handler/Training Director and a veteran dog, can get by with an inexperienced helper, but none of my dogs go in front of one. It would be a lot harder to screw up a good, experienced dog and a good TD can tell the new helper what this means or that means and help the new recruit learn. Too many things can go wrong and take months to fix.

 Quote: Norman

Helper work is not just sticking out an arm or leg but knowing how to read a dog and adjust instantly to what the helper sees. It is about timing and knowing when to stop, go forward, take a step back or quit, and recognizing the dog’s body language and adjust accordingly. IMO you can’t learn this from a DVD. That said you can learn correct presentation, some basic foot work and what not to do. The only way to learn correct helper work is to actually do it while an experienced helper is critiquing you. It’s one thing to describe and or watch how a helper catches a dog in the long bite. It’s quite another watching a dog coming down the field, hell bent for leather towards you knowing your first job is a safe catch, then how best to guide the dog to which side for this effort, while understanding whether to put pressure on the dog and how much or how little.

EXACTLY!!! Great way to put all of it!!!

Anyway, bottom line is, look for a club to train at. Bring you old lady (the dog, but the wife can tag along too!) and go learn about the sport. That man I mentioned, Christian, still brings a note book to every training and takes copious notes. Not a bad idea. Ask if you can film them. Watch and volunteer to help set up and take down the field if needed. Bring food and drinks (we always BBQ on Sunday’s). Run water to the tired helpers. Show that you have a commitment to the club. Same for your son. Most clubs are happy to bring in new helpers that will make a commitment to the club. The worst thing he could do is show up willy nilly; the handlers and their dogs come to count on the helper. We had a guy that trained for a year with us and ended up working a few needy dogs. We he stopped coming to every training, the owners would find that they drove two hours to not be able to train (young dogs should stick to one helper for consistency and to gain confidence).

Watch the DVDs that Leerburg sells. I would watch all of the Flinks DVDs, but really only try to put the Building Drive Focus and Grip in to practice. The others will help both of you to get a feel for what will be happening. As a matter of fact, budget permitting, all of the DVDs on this list would be great to watch as a reference.

Learn about Marker training. It is a great way to train and you really can’t mess it or any dog up. Some, (Bob Scott for one&hellip can train a dog to a 3 with out a physical correction; it may be something to strive for if the club you join supports it. Also, as Alyssa points out, you can do a ton of tracking at home. There are many resources available to teach this, and it can be very easy. Very young pups can learn the basics.

Anyway, have fun with your pup regardless!


Edited by JessicaKromer (05/02/2009 10:58 AM)
Edit reason: quote

We have a three year old working line GSD. We brought him home at 9 1/2 weeks of age. We followed Ed's advice on the crate: If we couldn't have eyes on him, Hans was in his crate. He had plenty of time outside the crate. He was cuddled a lot. Between my wife, my son and myself he didn't lack for human interaction or play time. But if no one could be with him, watching him, into the crate he went.

And I mean literally watching him. Our family room directly adjoins our kitchen. If my wife was home alone and was working in the kitchen and couldn't pay a lot of attention to him, Hans went into the crate.

I thank you all for the valuable information. This is quite an undertaking and I appreciate the advice. I am quite confident that we will have a proper companion at the very least.

On the subject of Schutzhund training: some people have informed me that schutzhund trained dogs are not suited to personal protection work because they respond to the handlers will and not their own wits. Could anyone enlighten me here? I have known too many people who after developing a reasonable degree of range proficiency felt they were prepared. They were not. They lacked a proper combat mindset. I do not want this for my dog. Please don't think that I want a dangerous dog, quite the contrary. Sasha has twice caused people to cease their evil ways and I just hope I can train junior to reliably do the same. MWS

Depends on a lot of factors.

Ultimately, Schutzhund or not, 90% of dogs aren't suited to Personal Protection.
Why do you need one?

Mark schutzhund is a training discipline just as PP is, the difference is the different behavior triggers in each. Moreover I have found that schutzhund training normally demands a great deal more obedience than PP training. I have never understood the reason for that. That said a correctly trained PP dog is something to behold. No matter the discipline responding to a “handlers will” while both are under stress i.e., biddability is however a prerequisite of both if the dog is to be of any real use. It is good to remember that aggression without control is a liability.

Mark wrote: On the subject of Schutzhund training: some people have informed me that schutzhund trained dogs are not suited to personal protection work because they respond to the handlers will and not their own wits. Could anyone enlighten me here?

A dog has the cognitive ability of a 3-5 year old child. I don’t know about you but I would not look forward to a 3-5 year old child using their wits in order to make life or death decisions about me or my family.