Hi Will,

Thanks for watching! I only use Attack dog, because it does get people to click on it - kind of like when people make videos that say "pit bull fight" and it is really a video against dog fighting. the video if watched clearly states that the dogs are for defense only and control is always emphasized.

Some people wrote some negetive comments about my "style". I consider it a style because i purposely train the dogs to go for the weapon arm and to purposely switch if the weapon changes hands - it is not random. That malinois was trained to protect someone in the state department so i have to do everything possible to protect the dog. Although i love french ring dogs and the sport - they do willingly take stick hits - which wouldnt work with the crowbar for instance so I switch up the priorities for the dog a bit to make the fight safer for him.

Thanks again for the feedback!



Again, thanks for the feedback!

"Thanks for watching! I only use Attack dog, because it does get people to click on it - kind of like when people make videos that say "pit bull fight" and it is really a video against dog fighting. the video if watched clearly states that the dogs are for defense only and control is always emphasized."

*****

I am not sure why you want to attract people who are drawn to dogs who "attack", as opposed to those who are interested in "personal protection" or any of the canine protection sports.

I concur with Will's concern about associating any form of canine training with "attack."

******

I recall in reading the Delisle text on fatal dog bites, a significant # of the fatalities were associated with dogs trained to attack in uncontrolled or unsupervised settings.

There were no incidents identified where sport dogs caused fatalities. Of the one or two incidents of police dogs causing fatalities, there was a "thin skull" situation involving a drug addict and a heart attack.

It is absolutely vital for all the protection sports that a distinction between sport and protection and "attack" be distinct.

If a dog associated with your facility gets involved in a situation involving judicial assessment of a bite, for example, do you want others to be able to click on your website to see youtube videos of dogs associated with you being trained to "attack"?

Do you expect a judge or a law enforcement officer laying a charge to get the nuances of your training?

*****

Will is 100% correct that words matter, and that word "attack" can cause problems for you and others. Please reconsider.

rgds andrew may

Hi Andrew,

Like I said to Will. The title is mostly used for search terms. There's nothing like it in the video. Those who work with me locally and law enforcement know I have safety standards very high. Dogs can not get even get into my program unless they pass the equivalent of a canine good citezen test plus are able to do well in my aggression control classes which includes all the guard dogs controlled and interacting loose at my facility (i use basket muzzles a lot for extra safety). Also, being safe on and off leash around outsiders.
A big part of what i do is to try to teach standards to the trainers in my area for this type of training. For instance in my "bite club" as we call it we ONLY do defensive drills. unless someone is law enforcement there is no reason for us to do anything offensive. When someone emails me that they want their dog to "attack" on command i generally dont answer it unless they are obviously just using the word in wrong context. I do demos at animal hospitals and humane society events demonstrating what safe personal protection training is about and how the dogs should actually be safer than the average dog of the same breed and potential capabilities without training. Many of the pet dogs I work with wouldnt even stand a chance in some of the more difficult ring sports - and get most of their motivation from actually protecting their owners anyway. I have have numerous lawers and even had a supreme court judge as a client and recently had a dog released to me via a court case by a county supreme court judge in order to safely manage and train the dog. So if you are just looking at the video title it can be easy to assume i am just advocating "attack dogs" but if you look closer into my work and my other videos you will see that I actually do mostly aggression rehab and management work and my protection work is usually so controlled and safe that I will generally get more negetive feedback that I'm killing the dogs drive or something along those lines.

I do really appreciate the feedback and will take that into consideration next time i title a clip. I like this board because you do get so many opinions and view points on it - especially when the members actually interact with you and ask questions - which is why i posted it.

Geoff, I'm sure there is no reason to not have your dogs suit orientated, but since that particular dog in the video is used for personal protection we also trained him on a hidden suit, the muzzle, and hidden sleeve (if we have him backtied safely.) I have a good tight fitting hidden suit that is great - we switch up the clothing over it constantly. it is better than the hidden sleeve because we can do the switch arm drills safely in the inside arm, but the only drawback is that the one I have and all the good tight fitting ones are made with kevlar so we use it sparingly on the dogs to protect their teeth.
I do have some dogs that i work that are definitely only suit orientated - mostly the pitbulls, dogos, etc, since those dogs we are working mostly for an outlet/fun and for various reasons I do not work them in defense or for "real". I could probably throw the suit off me in mid-charge and they would surely just go to the suit.
The switch the arm thing is an actual drill that we do work at the club just so you know - you can visit if you are ever in new york, we love visitors and to even work other peoples dogs. It is ok to ask me direct questions rather than assume that for some reason i'm trying to decieve people. I read the forums more than i post - i like to keep an open mind, be the best trainer i can, and share what I know so i can be the best that i can at my profession - i take a lot of pride in it. Therefore I am asking if you would please give me some guidance as to what advanced fighting is I would appreciate it- since I do have clients that do rely on their dogs to protect i do not want to short change them.
about the weapon thing - we do teach them what it is. of course we dont hit them with a crow bar, but we do hit them just like any of the sport dogs with different weapons that are uncomfortable enough that they learn with help that it is an easier fight if they disable it - especially before they are hit, this makes it less likely they will get destroyed with a crowbar. It is not an easy thing to teach, i only have two dogs that do it reliably right now and others that are getting the hang of it. What i do find is that it is a great technique for dogs that are on the softer side because it does build there confidence that they do not have to be beaten once they are on the bite - that is one of the reasons that some softer dogs can do great in my club. Of course a good ring dog you can beat the crap out of and they will hang on - just like a lot of good service dogs - but eventually some will get injured if they always think they are invinsible.
Although i was originally a tom rose graduate - which is heavily shutzhund orientated, the past 11 years i made my living doing only working security dogs and personal protection (and aggression rehab) so I ajusted through the years not only how i do the protection, but also how i do the obedience - since I do not have to train the dogs to get a good score on a training field - i use probably more verbal warnings and praise than most trainers(which wouldnt fly in competition - but saves the dogs tons of corrections in real life) and train like the dog will be handled in a real situation, not to perform once with no collars on etc during a trial. That is also part of what i am talking about with "style" type. It is just a different "style". Kind of like if i told you someone trained bill kohler style you would know what i was talking about - this is just a different style that some trainers do use. i had one guy who joined my club who was working toward a french ring title, but the club he belonged to was two hours away so he would come to us also. we were sure to take the bites, do the obedience, and manage the weapon in a way that would help him in the sport. there is a big difference in the way to train that way. I'm not sure how much experience you have in real personal protection training with a dog that is likely to need to bite for real- but there are different things to look at when you are critiquing and different things to assume - like what would happen if i did the same scenario with the suit on the floor next to the agititor. If a trainer does their job proofing the dog you should know what the outcome will be. Anyway, rambling now...

If you want to see some pet dogs that probably dont have near the right prey drive and nerves to do well in french ring but do well in personal protection you can check this one out with some clips of us doing drills with muzzles and hidden sleeves on some of the dogs. it is easy to figure out which ones are working in prey/fun and which would actually hurt the agitator or at the very least keep him busy enough so the owner has a chance to escape.

this is the muzzle video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcgdNEOJ40g

if you care for intelligent discussion i am open. especially to inform me more on advanced fighting which i am always willing to learn more on.

ps. sorry for the title of this clip also!! it was before i was informed it was not PC!!!

 Quote: andrew may

... I am not sure why you want to attract people who are drawn to dogs who "attack", as opposed to those who are interested in "personal protection" or any of the canine protection sports. ... I concur with Will's concern about associating any form of canine training with "attack."

I have to say that this was my reaction too. Why would people looking for "attack dogs" be the people you'd be trying to attract? I'm curious.

(Nothing to do with "PC," as was suggested in a later post.)

I liked the video. Nice dog Mike. The only problem i have is you spelled Advanced wrong, LOL

those are youtube videos - i simply use the terms most searched, i use all the common terms for protection training in my descriptions so people that dont know the PC term can find me. I already posted that i dont even repond to emails or phone calls that seek me for the wrong reasons or even use "attack training" unless they obviously dont know the correct pc term. I look at the whole situation and make an intelligent decision from there.

Are the youtube videos titled "vicous pit bull fight" then show vidoes educating against dog fighting trying to attract and endorse pit bull fighting...no.

Do i mind if someone who is searching for "attack dogs" finds my videos, of course not, because if anything they are preached in the videos about their responsible use.

I would think people should be more concerned about videos 'properly labeled' misrepresented what personal protection should be. It would be hard to think my videos would realistically ever cause negetive press about personal protection dogs.

Like i said in an earlier post - i get more of the opposite reaction from most people "that my videos represent soft dogs etc" becaus ei let the agitators pet the dogs etc.. i get a lot of that.

As you know there are no standards or lawful requirements to train personal protection dogs. I probably wouldnt be against it either if there was, because any trainer who was responsible and had a good track record wouldnt be affected anyway. Law agencies and security companies would still need dogs. Also, my videos have nothing to do with sport training - i make a good effort to seperate the two and mention in most my videos that the training doesnt represent sport training - so that group shouldnt be effected either.

There are irresposible trainers that will give personal protection training and sport training a bad name even if i labeled my videos "very soft cuddly dogs that bite very soft only during lawful situations".
But i really cant control that. If any of the responsible trainers out there are out of jobs soon because of MY videos - I will understand and give forgiveness if you all come and lynch me.

But, i truly think my videos would give "attack dog" a more controlled resposible image to the personal protection dog than the opposite.

I do find the discussion interesting though because generally the public who often find me through youtube will contact me because of the responsible image that i thought i projected.

Are trainers on this forum experiencing real lawful threats to their livliehood? It is something that i really wasnt aware of and does intrigue me. I would be interested in knowing more.

i know im a horrible speller! thats one of the reasons why im a dog trainer... dont come to me for spelling lessons or speech lessons either, im also a horrible stutterer.

Hi Mike,

That is great that you do all that stuff with that particular dog. My comments were on the video and NOT a shot at your training. I called it the way I saw it .. and I see it for what it was. A dog going into prey drive over something that he has bitten before and switching a grip, is still what it looks like for better or worse.

I still say using a crowbar is impressive as a prop for humans to see, but the dog still doesn't know what it is capable of (nor should it). A SchH noodle IMO would have the same effect on the dog as a threat as crowbar was my point.

I understand your concept about going for the armed hand we actually train our higher lvl Ring dogs to do just that if the decoy tries to scoop them from going to the legs. It also takes the pressure of the stick away from the dog, until the decoy can switch the baton into another hand. So to me it still isn't anything really new but just common sense for a PPD trainer to follow.

I enjoyed your muzzle video a lot, thanks for posting that.

Next time I'm through NY I'll try to look you up.

Happy training,