I have a belief that there is a fine line when working with a working dog, One side of that line is the dogs personal needs keeping it happy, playing, letting lose, the other side of that line is the working side, making sure the dog is obedient in face of an unknown situation, will listen to only the handler, will bite even when he does not see a sleeve or suit.

And on that line you have a healthy mix of the two, playing around with the dog but still getting him to do his job with no problems and you as the handler are in charge.

As of last night I have found out that I completely fell off the line all together.

And first a little back brief on me and my dog, I have a MWD that I have been working with for 2 years in March. He is a GS mix and 5 years old, but plays around like he is 2. Right now we are deployed in Iraq. (Please no random thank yous, its a job, just like Police Officers, I just travel that's all)

I think the problem started when I got a bit to comfortable with him (and more then likely I never got him to the point he needed in training). My MWD has no problems doing any tasks I give him, he does all his patrol work fine, and he does detection fine too. After getting here I felt really good about where me and my dog where at and started to slack off on training.

At this point I pretty much keep him with me all during the day and put him back in his run at night. I also never put a choke on him any more, only the leather collar. Now I have no problem with this, I like this, hell I want to take it another step further and be able to train/work with him with no equipment what so ever. (And of course when it comes to actually working he would for safety sake)

And so, the problem is (finally I know) last night I went to the medic shack just to hang out with some people and let my dog socialize and he loved it of course, one of the nurses brought out a sock for my dog to play with, it was fun, played tug no problem, I told him to OUT it, he dropped it with out giving me any grief. BUT. Right before we left I went to put my hand under his neck (he had his head down low) to get the rag from him and he came up leash at me. To the point where he jumped up and chased my hand away, snapping at it. At first I was shocked so I waited a second then patted his head and went to reach for the sock again. Ended up being the same result, him lunging after my hand and actually following it away from the sock, not just a quick snap.

After this happened I took him out side and started to do some quick OB with him around the side of the building. At first he was a bit slow but he followed all my commands, and all he had on was his leather collar so the only corrections I could give him was a verbal and a tug.

Now I know my main issue is I need to get back on top of training, and trust me I will. But any other opinions on the matter?

Sorry this is a but jumbled I am on my way out the door.

Thanks for the help.



Edited by Michael West (02/26/2010 12:38 AM)
Edit reason: Bad spelling.

I got my background in working dogs from some friends that were MWD handlers.
I am not an expert by any means, but somewhat familiar with MWD.
It sounds like in the dog's mind SOP wasn't being followed, and therefore he wasn't sure of what was allowed or not.
1 No training/control equip on him to set the expectations of proper behavior.
2 playing tug in a non training/working environment aroused his drive. and prob feelings of dominance.
3 The reward of being pet on the head after a disobedience.

I think its great that you want to get him out of the kennel and let him be more social!
I do also think that you will need to follow Ed's advice on setting the ground work in this NEW situation of "social animal" that he is in. Or to put it another way, since his life has revolved around protocols and SOP, you need to set those up for the new social situations.
You need to have the proper equip on him to enforce those SOPs and such. I would recommend Ed's dominant dog collar...I know it might be hard to get one there, and if you cant, with braided parachute/shock cord and a snap/ring you should be able to put one together.
That way if he won't out or listen you can just lift his front paws off the ground and quietly take his air away. It will keep from escalating his drives in a social situation, he will get the point and you won't have to be all dramatic in a social situation.
Having a thrashing snapping MWD is a damper in any social situation. lol

I could be wrong here, but from what you said he isn't giving you any problems in any other areas...all areas that he knows the SOP.
So come up with a SOP for the new situation.
In my experience When they outed a MWD they would out and then take the dog away from the sleeve or tug, not reach down and take it away. Not criticizing, at all here, I don't know your SOP, but if that is your SOP, then doing it differently would create confusion in an already confusing situation.
I don't think that I would play tug with him in that situation...or anything that would put him in drive.
But again..your dog and situation..I'm not there.

Michael West posts:

"To the point where he jumped up and chased my hand away, snapping at it. At first I was shocked so I waited a second then patted his head"


First, being retired military and having served in a combat zone, I know the sacrifice. So thank you for your service. Secondly, almost my entire career was in MWD, including 12 years as an instructor at the dog school at Lackland. I say that only to make a point. It really doesn't matter that the dog in question is an MWD or the civilian counter-part PSD. To that end, let me make a couple of observations.

1. I would think by now you realize the mistake of the pat on the head, rather than the proverbial kick in the ass (figure of speech folks, don't get your panties in a wad). The moment it happened was the time to make the point that the behavior was/is unacceptable. I have few basic rules, one of them however is; "You will not bite the hand that feeds you." Of course we all understand there is a difference in the dog nipping your fingers when playing tug or someother game, than the dog trying to bite you for whatever reason.

2. The second observation; you posted: "After this happened I took him out side and started to do some quick OB with him around the side of the building. At first he was a bit slow but he followed all my commands, and all he had on was his leather collar so the only corrections I could give him was a verbal and a tug."
What I read is; you were angry (never a good time to train) and you were going to show the dog who's boss (do some quick OB). Your intent was to cause him to try and come at you again (around the side of the building). The dog was confused at your anger (he was a bit slow) and I hope not, but you might have even corrected him for being slow (Could only give him verbal and a tug)

My opinion of course, but that does more harm than good. Of course you return to your training, reestablish the rules, and realize that you are a team. I"m sure it will work out well.

Keep your head down and back to the wall --- Good Luck

DFrost

 Quote: Willie Tilton

I could be wrong here, but from what you said he isn't giving you any problems in any other areas...all areas that he knows the SOP.
So come up with a SOP for the new situation.
In my experience When they outed a MWD they would out and then take the dog away from the sleeve or tug, not reach down and take it away. Not criticizing, at all here, I don't know your SOP, but if that is your SOP, then doing it differently would create confusion in an already confusing situation.
I don't think that I would play tug with him in that situation...or anything that would put him in drive.
But again..your dog and situation..I'm not there.

There really isn't a set guideline when it comes to doing bitework in the army, well there is, but it is focused on the end result rather then how to get to the end result. They dont care how you train (as long as it is humain) as long as your dog can certify.

In the end I think it was simply a overload of attention and too much change at once.

 Quote: david c.frost

1. I would think by now you realize the mistake of the pat on the head, rather than the proverbial kick in the ass (figure of speech folks, don't get your panties in a wad). The moment it happened was the time to make the point that the behavior was/is unacceptable. I have few basic rules, one of them however is; "You will not bite the hand that feeds you." Of course we all understand there is a difference in the dog nipping your fingers when playing tug or someother game, than the dog trying to bite you for whatever reason.

Yeah, after a few days I have re-evaluated my training over the last few weeks and made adjustments where needed.

 Quote: david c.frost

2. The second observation; you posted: "After this happened I took him out side and started to do some quick OB with him around the side of the building. At first he was a bit slow but he followed all my commands, and all he had on was his leather collar so the only corrections I could give him was a verbal and a tug."
What I read is; you were angry (never a good time to train) and you were going to show the dog who's boss (do some quick OB). Your intent was to cause him to try and come at you again (around the side of the building). The dog was confused at your anger (he was a bit slow) and I hope not, but you might have even corrected him for being slow (Could only give him verbal and a tug)

My opinion of course, but that does more harm than good. Of course you return to your training, reestablish the rules, and realize that you are a team. I"m sure it will work out well.

Keep your head down and back to the wall --- Good Luck

DFrost

Ok, so unfortunately, your right on the money. After he came up at me I did take him outside to do some quick training to see if he was going to obey or keep acting like a jackass. But much to my surprise he did fine and did need to correct him outside of verbal for an improper heel (he sat in front of me). I will say I did not act angry and I tried to keep it out of my voice.. but I know I just lying to myself, it goes against my personal saying "Everything flows down leash"

Alright, just wanted to update. Sorry it took me so long, I half way did not want to come back and read the responses because even when making this thread, I knew it was my fault.

Anyhow, training is going fine, he doesn't have any real problems in any areas really. We are back to our normal training schedule and I am back to the leather collar and choke chain. The biggest change is that I have taken a big step back a lot on the socialization, which I am taking him back out for again today, this time with baby steps rather then diving into the deep end.

So far everything is going good, it seems to be that it was a one time thing.

Edited by Michael West (03/08/2010 01:28 AM)
Edit reason: spelling