Hi Stella, you know it just may be more of a fear aggression.

1) We did notice that the growling seemed to eminate when my husband was reaching towards him. He knows that when he mis-behaves that we reach for his collar to issue a correction. Many times when you give a command and he doesn't listen the minute you reach for the collar he will then obey the command. We have taken off the prong collar and he is now wearing his nylon collar. We are thinking of purchasing a nylon slip collar to issue his corrections.

2) Khaos didn't bark at my husband he growled at him. Ears went flat and his tail up as if he didn't recognize him.

3) In obedience it depends - if he is using his tennis ball as a reward Khaos has ears up, tail up but not stiff and eyes are on the ball. If he is using food and/or correction he concentrates on what he is being told. i.e. If heeling he stays very close to my husband, leaning on him, his ears are flat and he concentrates on where he is in correlation with my husband - he knows he should be at his side and not wander to far in front of him that he can not anticipate him turning - thus loosing the heel position. He tends to 'eye' his leg at this point.

4) Khaos does not have a problem with either of us rolling him onto his belly for a belly rub. He like it

5) Gabriel has had a three other dogs. Two mixed breeds (a. GSD Mix and b. Husky Mix) and one called a Keish Hound (sorry if mis-spelled)

6) I do think that he has issued some pretty strong corrections. But that is what he was instructed to do by our trainer. So there is a grey area to me of what is necessary - if we follow what was taught to us then I would say NO correction that was issued was to harsh. If I answer according to my heart - well any time you make a pup cry is to harsh in my thinking.

7) Khaos is not a big "cuddler". In the morning he will always come to my side of the bed first and kiss my face, then he will stand against the bed and want me to rub him. If either of us is on the floor and he is laying there he will usually lay on his side wait for you to rub him and then flip onto his back wanting you to rub his belly. Like I said right now he is more interested in playtime than cuddle time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

8) Trainer said it may be "nerves" b/c we took him for a session to have him study his behavior with other dogs and children. Khaos goes crazy when another dog or child comes into the picture - he will start barking ecstatically. It takes a lot to get him to obey. And it usually makes people think he is a vicious dog. However; around people in general he gets very excited, wagging his tail and ellicits a different bark (I call it a "puppy" bark) because it is almost like a "pay attention to me" playful attitude.

9) My husband has raised his voice and/or speak in a sharp tone in the past at Khaos; but then so did I. This is before our trainer explained to us that we need to be calm at all times and if either of us become "angry" then we need to take a "time out" b/c Khaos doesn't understand anger.

I think you may be correct - I think it may be more of a fear aggression and we need to let up a bit on his training and gear more towards letting him be a puppy. I guess we were a bit strong b/c we have been told if we do not enforce things now, when he is mature we will have difficulty enforcing things. But I still would like advise about alternate "corrections" to enforce the right behavior if he chooses not to listen. It is not as if he doesn't know his obedience commands (sit,heel,down etc.) But sometimes he doesn't listen.

Gary: we have been using the prong collar since he began obedience training at around 6 months old - we were worried about trach damage with a choker.

The most common mistake people make with their dogs is not rewarding them enough. This is even more common with teenaged larger breeds, like GSDs, because they look alot older than they really are and act like they "need" a harsh correction more than anything else. Also, trainers usually forget to focus enough on rewarding the dog during training because it simply takes more time -whereas a strong correcting gets quick results.

From my experience, you can 'soften' your training alot without even really softening your corrections just by adding more rewards and cheer.
Dogs tend to forgive harsh corrections easier (and recover from them faster) if the rest of the lesson was truly fun. Men have this problem much more than women because many are actually embarassed to 'coo' to their dog or act silly. Many even think too much smiling at their dog will make their dog a sissy. This is dead wrong.

GSD's may be very, very energetic at Chaos' age but that doesn't mean they are not sensitive. I would advise you husband to jerk the prong WITHOUT really hurting the dog (just to make the chain make noise). You can put the prong on your thigh to practice this. It is a very sharp jerk but not 'deep' or long enough to actually 'pinch' the dog. If the dog does not obey THEN he could correct slightly harder. This dog may do alot better on a thin choke chain instead of the prong (used in the same way as described above). The choke chain actually makes more noise and works alot better than the prong on sensitive dogs.
I would never use a nylon slip collar as it is the very same thing as the choke only silent (thus NEVER allowing you to give a very soft correction via sound- or even a medium correction). Ask your trainer to show you how to use the choke correctly if you decide to use it. It is an excellent tool and will cause Chaos absolutely no damage if used properly.

And then concentrate on 'upping' the fun. You don't need to use treats to do this. #1 is changing your (husband's in this case) disposition. Tell him to "over-act" happy when Chaos is doing well (even if he is just heeling well or made a good turn). Think 'Jim Carey' !

A "Yipeee!" for a job well done is better than any food treat. Teaching dogs in this way has 3 major benifits: 1. its so fun 2. it virtually makes dogs more 'willing to please' all the time and 3. A few months down the road, the slightest smile will mean a reward to Chaos -because he will have learned to love life itself when you smile... also you will be able to correct him with a just scowl or a frown!

What does his pedigree look like?

Yvette,
Your dog is exhibition fear aggression that is being habituitaized by either poor handling or poor training advice. 99% of handler aggression comes from inconsistent, poorly timed and inappropriate corrections that have made a transition in the dog’s mind about what is happening to him and why.

This breach is a self-preservation mechanism that is being triggered by associative actions or mannerisms your husband is unconsciously exhibiting. This reaction is likely the result from the way the corrections have been administered. Poorly timed corrections in a way that does not direct or redirect are a punishment…not a correction. This will always result in the behavior you now seeing in your dog given enough time.

Unfortunately, your request for a solution that will help cannot be appropriately handled with a few lines of comment.

I can send you in the directions you need if you PM me. My advice is free on an Internet site I am constructing. While the site is still in BETA and not accessible to the public the training instruction provided there is nearly complete and will help you.

Sorry I will not give access out to others.

I will need your confidence in not releasing the site address or information until we are ready to launch it onto the web. While not extremely important I am a fan of doing thing right the first time so I hope you respect my request in exchange for my help.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Lisa,

 Quote:

Yvette, from everything you have said, I'm not too crazy about your trainer. In what
context did he say that the pup does not understand anger? That's ridiculous. Dogs,
as social animals, are very attuned to emotion and moods. If the trainer means this
comment in the context of punishment after the fact, yes, he is correct. I do agree
that just getting angry in and of itself when the pup does something wrong will not
teach him what you want him to do, so if that's what he meant, then that's correct.
But if he means that the pup cannot understand when you are upset, that's wrong.

Sorry for the confusion. What was meant is that should we get angry and thus transfer that anger to Khaos in a sense of losing control. Then it is that in which the dog does not understand - not the mood itself but the loss of control. Our trainer was trying to communicate that calm, confident, easily understandable guidance is needed. Not out of control "i'm pissed at you" type attitude.

I have a lot of confidence in our trainer and he has already given a lot of time and effort to aid in our dilemma. I think sometimes it's difficult to turn my thoughts into text.

Anyhow thank you for the feedback

Gotcha. And that I agree with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm still not crazy about your trainer though! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Good luck! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />