Although we (the adults) have established our roles over the dog, I still can't seem to grasp how we get the dog to understand that she is ALSO lower than the kids in rank.

This is what we have done (the only things I can think to establish this)...making her wait til we are ALL thru the door. Not taking her seatbelt off till both kids are out of the car. Greeting the kids first when I come home from work. She used to jump up ANY time I hugged or picked up one of my kids, I've stopped that.

But in her defense, I think when the kids get their face in hers, or play too roughly with her, I end up raising my voice with THEM, and I truly think Harley "gets" this, and thinks THEY are in the wrong, hence the "I'm above them mentality".

Now, I KNOW that I have to work with my kids on this as well...so I'm feeling out what is the best way the kids can play and interact with her. I've been doing some more reading, and I've read that "tug-of-war" with a dog is not a good idea. She's not really a fan of retreiving, unless it's a stick thrown into water. So, what are ways in which they can befriend the dog safely? They love playing with her, and so far, the only thing I've let them do with her, is chase her around the yard...she loves to play 'keep away'.

Any ideas? Thanks so much. Also, if there are ANY things I'm missing in order to establish the kids rank, please let me know!
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Robyn,
How old is the dog? How old are the kids? Has the dog had any obedience training? What's the breeding on the dog? Working, backyard, show? There are a lot of questions before anyone can answer yours.
One thing. Your comment about the kids love to chase, and the dog loves to play keep away. If the kids are small enough to be controlled by the dog, they should never be alone with it. Regardless of how good you may think it is. Chase can lead to nipping when the kids run from the dog. It should NEVER be allowed to mouth the kids, even in play. If the kids aren't old enough to make corrections (under you supervision) you should do it. Also, the dog is showing who is in charge when it "keeps" the toy.

Also, as a rule, not always, the female will be a much less dominance issue than a male.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Old earth dog Bob Scott:
Robyn,
How old is the dog? How old are the kids? Has the dog had any obedience training? What's the breeding on the dog? Working, backyard, show? There are a lot of questions before anyone can answer yours.
One thing. Your comment about the kids love to chase, and the dog loves to play keep away. If the kids are small enough to be controlled by the dog, they should never be alone with it. Regardless of how good you may think it is. Chase can lead to nipping when the kids run from the dog. It should NEVER be allowed to mouth the kids, even in play. If the kids aren't old enough to make corrections (under you supervision) you should do it. Also, the dog is showing who is in charge when it "keeps" the toy.

I'm sorry, here is some more info.

Harley is almost 2. We got her last September, she was approximately 1 1/2.

My two boys are 7 and 9 years old, and trust me, they are NEVER alone with her. I have learned A LOT in the last few months, as I was having dominance issues, and I read, and posted, and read...etc. But this one has me stumped. I think the kids SHOULD be allowed to play with her to some extent, but people on another board are telling me they should NEVER play with the dog. That is just sad to me, she's a family dog, and does like to play with the kids - I just need to find the 'RIGHT' way for them to interact.

Harley has been to one obedience class since we've gotten her, and I'm looking into another class, but there are surprisingly few in my area. I have been working with her on my own tho, with focus, heels, - but without knowing the exact technique, I fear I'm doing it wrong. I've taught her "leave it", "stay", "wait", "off" and MANY 'tricks' etc...so I know I can teach her more, if I knew how. But sorry, that's a whole other thread.

What I really wanted to know is, why is it wrong for the kids to have supervised play with her? And I know she is controlling the play by playing keep away, but it's the only way I've found they could have fun with her in the yard.

Help me! hehe

P.S. - I'm really open minded to all ideas and direction.

Robyn,
There is no reason the kids can't play with the dog as long as it's supervised at their age. I still would not let her mouth or nock down the kids. You commented about teaching her tricks.I'll bet you gave her treats and lots of praise when she got it right. Did you correct her when she got the trick wrong? I doubt it. Dog training is nothing mor than teaching dogs "tricks". If she does her sit, down, stay, etc, she get praise and a treat. The correction only comes after she has completely understood what you expect of her. Corrections are for a refusual for doing something she knows how to do. Does that make sence?

It is hard for children to establish a higher role in the pack so to speak that is why you must teach the dog what is appropriate behavior whether it be with your children or anyone else. Using treats to is great way for kids to get along with dogs. Of course you must make sure the kids behavior towards to dog is appropriate also. By that I mean do not allow them to intitiate rough play of any sort. Throwing a ball, a frisbee etc.. is a great way for them to play with her. I agree with not letting them chase her it can turn ugly and rough and encourage her to nip and knock them down not because she wants to hurt them but because it is a form of rough play. When things start getting rough here everybody gets a correction not just the kids and not just the dog. Your kids are still young and I am glad to see you supervise all play sessions. That is a very smart thing. I limit play sessions and make sure that they end on a possitve note. By that I mean if things start getting to intense I redirect the behavior and end it. I have teenagers and a toddler and my dog has learned that he may never put his mouth on any of us in play or otherwise. He was the alligator puppy of the century and now is well behavied and looks forward to playing and minds his manners because if he dosent the session is over. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i raised 3 boys and countless dogs together as ONE pack. every one of the boys had been bitten by OTHER people's dogs at one time or another, but NEVER by one of our own. we had an extremely hard male for a number of years, but he was also the best protector of children i have ever seen......anybody's kids and adored babies. the bitch that i just recently lost was always #2...below me and above my husband. not a problem. she knew that her job was to protect home and family and did so very well. i know i've harped alot on pack order, etc. but you can't establish order for your children. one's place in the pack has to be earned. mom and dad can establish their own places as #1 or #2, set the rules for the pack to follow and then make corrections if the rules aren't followed. i guess what i am trying to say is that the dog is not always at the bottom of the order and it isn't necessarily a bad thing; provided that the dog is considerate and protective of the lower rank. now, if you've got a dog that tries to establish itself as #1, you've got a problem. you either have the wrong dog or you shouldn't have a dog at all. i can't say enough about earning one's place. there are a lot of people who think they can establish themselves as the pack leader simply by saying so and attempting to assert themselves over the pack. while you are busy trying to assess your dog's character he is also evaluating yours. if you don't measure up, you won't earn respect. plain and simple. dogs don't have a problem with authority, but they do have a problem with a leader (canine or human) that tries to be #1 and is not worthy of the position.

Thanks everybody for your responses, I appreciate it. When I heard that children shouldn't be playing with a rotti, it upset me...what's the point in having a family pet. But now, when we all go out to play hockey, Harley joins right in. We all play frisbee together, and I can't wait until it gets hot, so we can get Harley's pool out!

And Patricia, about the "alpha role" - I've had Harley on a very strict NILIF program, because when I first got her, I didn't even KNOW about any of it! When I started reading up, I realized she needed to be on it...we had been letting her sleep with us, etc. Anyway, for two months now, we've been extremely consistent (moreso than I've ever been with the kids) We bought her a new bed of her own...and the other night, we decided we'd invite her up on the couch for a cuddle. Well, it's like we just went in reverse! She thinks she's allowed to come up on the bed again, tries to jump on the couch...she's just VERY pushy, and the littlest bit of slack, and she's right there trying to take the lead role again!

She's a high maintenance dog, but we are definitely showing her the way back down the ladder again, and we've learned we can't even give her an inch (or maybe we'll just have to wait a much longer time before we do)

Hi Robyn. I am experiencing the same issues with my children and our seven month old Sharpei.
He is jumping up at them when he gets excited...growling if they come near his food bowl....showing all kinds of signs of dominance over them.
I have talked to my kids till I'm blue in the face about the "chasing" game ( the dog chases THEM!) but still, in particular my five year old son can't seem to WALK anywhere !
Anyway, I'm new here and going to be doing a lot of reading and researching <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />