Geoff,

The lack of a "kill instinct" has no bearing on PSD or PPD work. With the PPD and PSD the desire to control and hold is more important than a desire to kill. If you look at the breeds used for bite work, Belgian Sheperds, GSD, Bouv, and Giant Schnauzer you are looking at dogs bred for herding. Other breeds that have been used have come dogs bred to be stock protectors. Very few of the breeds used for bite work are dogs used to kill other animals. One comment that has gone through this list is the difficulty that often comes in teaching Pits and other fighting/killing breeds to "out". Their desire to finish the fight will often make it difficult to teach them to quit on command. The trainer I work with doesn't seem to have much of a problem with it, but I have seen others that have. The primary problem seems to be the ability to get a good correction on the dog. If it isn't done right you can't communicate to the dog in height of a fight.

With several herding breeds the problem with doing police/protection work is not desire but size. Several breeds, including most of the Terriers and several Herding breeds, just don't have the size to get adequate control over a man. If the dog can't provide enough "oomph" to get control and/or adequately control the movement of the person, it is not going to work for bite work because it just becomes an irritant rather than a real threat to the person. Case in point, my wife has a Miniature Schnauzer. She wanted to learn to protection train. She can't handle the Giant because of the dogs size and strength. In addition she wanted to have a lap dog. So we got the Mini as it is tough enough to play and hold her own with the Giant and small enough to be a lap dog. She is a little terror on her protection work. She is VERY protective of her Mamma. We use her at demos we do to raise money for the local PD for the Canine Program. After we work her, the donations always go up. Out trainer's daughter had a Mini that did save her in a couple of situations by biting an attacker. The dog got a hold of the upper arm and scared the guy off. Obviously if the guy had been more serious the dog would not have been effective, but on that occasion it did work.

Richard,

I hear you.

I only have experience of training dogs (police and civilian dogs) in Africa. I have never trained a dog to bark and hold (I know this exercise as a "stand-off" tackle), although I am aware of the exercise.

Hello, Lou Castle. We've been down this road before.

Unlike the UK or the USA there are certain differences in the way we train and deploy our dogs.

You guys train service dogs the same way as we train competition dogs (actually not quite the same but similar).

You look for the Bark and Hold with the possibility of a full tackle if the "criminals" actions dictate.

If we release a dog a full-on tackle will result.

You look for a full, deep bite which must be maintained (so do we, in competition).

But for Police work we look for an ABSOLUTE man stopper with the dog using it's own initiative in dealing with (attacking) "aggressive" arms (which may be holding a weapon) or flailing legs. The dog will continuously release and re-bite any limb that poses a threat.

I understand your Military dogs are also trained this way.

Multiple bites are not only desirable, for active resistance, they are taught. I believe that the "shock content" of a dog bite is equal to a gunshot wound. Resistance by an accused will result in multiple "gunshot" wounds, without death resulting.

The "competition" full bite does not work for us.

We also teach our dogs to "leap" into the tackle taking the shoulder/neck. This protects our dogs as it is almost impossible to shoot/stab/injure a dog that has taken you high and from the rear. The weight and momentum of such a tackle is guaranteed to bring the fleeing accused down.

The rights and/or wrongs of such training are not up for debate here. We have a class of criminal here who has no respect for human life, let alone a dog. We do not like losing our dogs and we train accordingly.

And just to reinforce the point I can advise that I lost my eldest dog to a gunshot wound on the 14th December.

Your comment, "The lack of a "kill instinct" has no bearing .......", may well be true in your case but it does not come anywhere close in ours.

Whereas I am fully aware that GSD's have their lineage in herding and more particularly stock protection this genetic trait seems to have been bred out. Personally I know of no GSD, Belgian, Bouv or Schnauzer performing this function today. I'm sure you will be able to quote some line that is doing so and thereby "shoot me down", but as a general rule it is not happening.

The "kill instinct" as it relates to man is not the same as it would relate to other animals, specifically other dogs. This is a trained for situation - environmentally conditioned, NOT genetic. Although I do concede that a dog with genetic code that MAKES him fight with other dogs is a major problem - read on.

Two dogs released on an accused (dual tackle) must target the man. If those dogs would rather fight each other, then they are a liability and would be rejected.

You are quite correct that the "Bull" breeds are a problem in this regard. No doubt this is the reason that I have no knowledge of this breed ever being used for a patrol dog or personal protection work.

You are absolutely correct in your comment, "not desire but size".

I have seen many BC's perform competition manwork excellently. The only problem being that the criminal keeps absconding with the BC hanging onto the sleeve.

In the American situation - and the UK - where your laws prohibit (can I refer to it as) full use of the dog, could you not well utilise a BC for the "stand-off" apprehension?

But as you have already stated there is no "oomph"!

Horses for courses. And I return to my original contention of a "kill instinct".

Shandar appears to be reasonably au fait with the BC breed and I would welcome a discourse from him on the attributes/problems of the breed as compared with "dog" generally.

I would also welcome comment from anyone else who can offer insight to other breeds.

Sure I know this is a GSD list and I have seen Ed get his knickers in a knot previously for discussing other breeds.

I, too, am a GSD fanatic but that does not prevent me from learning more about dogs in general. It helps me understand the canidae better. Hopefully Ed will share my sentiments.

Regards,

Geoff.

Geoff wrote: Hello, Lou Castle. We've been down this road before.

LC: Yes we have Geoff. And now as then, you’ve made some statements as fact that are not true. Other places we just plain old disagree so there’s not really any wrong or right.

LC: This is certainly far afield from the overly aggressive border Collie that started this thread. Are you sure that You’ve posted in the right thread. It looks like it should have gone to the thread that started with a question about a dog going into a bark if the suspect were to surrender. Anyway . . .

Geoff wrote: You guys train service dogs the same way as we train competition dogs (actually not quite the same but similar).

LC: Here’s one of those places where you’re wrong. Not everyone in the US trains the same way. Some use a find and bark and some use a find and bite.

Geoff wrote: You look for the Bark and Hold with the possibility of a full tackle if the "criminals" actions dictate.

LC: Not everyone in the US trains this way.

Geoff wrote: If we release a dog a full-on tackle will result.

LC:. If you call the dog back or give him a down or sit command, a “full–on tackle” will NOT result. Correct?

Geoff wrote: You look for a full, deep bite which must be maintained (so do we, in competition).

LC: Not everyone in the US trains like this. In fact I don’t know of anyone who requires that the bite be maintained in all circumstances. I train that the dog should bite once and hold on but that's not an absolute. At some point a crook may twist a dog's neck so far that it's going to break. I don't want a dog to hold on if that's imminent. I want him to release and rebite somewhere else. Also if the dog is getting the crap beat out of him because, for example, he's bitten a leg and the suspect is using both fists to pummel him, I want him to release and rebite. I want him to go up high on the chest or to take a bicep. But those are VERY rare circumstances.

Geoff wrote: But for Police work we look for an ABSOLUTE man stopper with the dog using it's own initiative in dealing with (attacking) "aggressive" arms (which may be holding a weapon) or flailing legs. The dog will continuously release and re-bite any limb that poses a threat.

LC: Here’s our main point of disagreement. I maintain that a dog that releases and rebites wherever he perceives a threat is NOT stopping anyone from doing anything. All he’s doing is inflicting lots of damage but he’ not controlling anything. And when when you go to court he’ll show up with dozens of photos of dog bites all over his body. That may be all right in your country but the rest of the world dislikes it.

LC: by comparison I’ll ask you who better controls his opponent, a boxer who lands hundred of punches in a 12 round fight or a ground-fighter who takes his opponent to the ground and places a pain compliance hold on him?

Geoff wrote: I believe that the "shock content" of a dog bite is equal to a gunshot wound.

LC: I know of no one else in the world that makes this comparison. A handgun bullet arrives at (usually) over a thousand feet per second. It weighs fractions of an ounce and penetrates nearly a dozen inches into the body. A rifle bullet arrives at (usually) well over 2,000 feet per second delivering MASSIVE amounts of shock to the body. High powered rifle bullets tear holes out the back sides of bodies big enough to put a softball into.

LC: Compare that to a dog who runs at 35 MPH, weighs 65–100 pounds and inflicts four holes at once that only penetrate 2 inches at most. There is no way to compare these two. There is absolutely no "shock effect" as occurs with bullets. People often go into shock after a bite, but this is not the shock effect of being shot. If there ever was an apples and oranges” comparison, this is it.

Geoff wrote: We also teach our dogs to "leap" into the tackle taking the shoulder/neck. This protects our dogs as it is almost impossible to shoot/stab/injure a dog that has taken you high and from the rear.

LC: Such a bite also may result in the suspect, who probably outweighs the dog 2X-3X from rolling over on top of him when he somersaults as he hits the ground. This could result in injury to the dog. I think it’s much safer to the dog to take a leg and let the suspect trip and fall to the ground. The handler isn’t far behind so he can assist in a few seconds. In any case, I’d hesitate to send a dog on someone that I knew to have a knife or a gun unless there were some extenuating circumstances. He’s better taken into custody by men with guns.

Geoff wrote: The rights and/or wrongs of such training are not up for debate here.

LC: Sure they are.

Geoff wrote: We have a class of criminal here who has no respect for human life, let alone a dog. We do not like losing our dogs and we train accordingly.

LC: No matter that the suspect has no respect for human life; we still have an obligation to take him into custody using the least amount of force necessary. At least in this country. No body likes losing a dog.

Working Dog,
this thread seems to have taken a turn, but I would like to add to what Lou has already pointed out.
I'm not trying to change how you train or use your dogs, I think your goverment will eventually do that for you.
As LC stated there are many schools of thought on police dogs in the US. In my area dogs aren't taught to bark and hold, standoff.
US military dogs are trained as police dogs, along the lines of some of the "Sportier" police programs.
A full bite isn't required, only a bite and hold that is in flesh, not hanging on a piece of clothing. Dogs are taught to counter and re grip fuller to ensure they have flesh, thus causing the desired effect-control, producing shock, compliance.
in my experience a dog that bites-releases-rebites...gives that suspect an opportunity to escape, fight the dog. It does occupy the suspect, but shock would be delayed, causing more injury than is required.
Now Lou can say he has heard two people liken a dog bite to being shot. I saw a acccidential bite were a assisting officer was bitten without any fore warning, he dropped like a stone..swore that he had been shot. Of course he never saw the dog , had to be told that he was bitten. It was a quick bite/release to the thigh...different than what Lou and you describe.
Lastly, I think MOST, PSD's in the US are trained to target primarily the arms. Should be taught to target the MAN, if arm isn't available, bite whatever they can get. I like a high "Leaping Tackle", agree it has a safty effect like you describe...and realize it also is easier to dodge.
A couple of years ago I was training with a former Isreali dog handler, who told me of what he saw of the new SA while visiting his parents. Good luck and do whatever you have to do to stay safe.

Jack Callahan wrote: Now Lou can say he has heard two people liken a dog bite to being shot. I saw a acccidential bite were a assisting officer was bitten without any fore warning, he dropped like a stone..swore that he had been shot. Of course he never saw the dog , had to be told that he was bitten. It was a quick bite/release to the thigh...different than what Lou and you describe.

LC: Jack I’d ask if that officer had ever been shot before. If not, I’d question his comparison. If not, he’s comparing a dog bite to what he THINKS it feels like to get shot and so we’re into the area of conjecture and being completely subjective. I’ve spoken to people who have been both shot and bitten (in separate incidents) and they told me that there was no comparison between the two. Some were immediately incapacitated by either the shot or the bite but they said that they were completely different feelings.

LC: This is a bit of divergence from K9’s and training them, so please permit me this detour. You mention something that is near and dear to my heart, the MYTH of knock down power of a bullet. You mentioned the officer “dropped like a stone” when he was bitten. “Knock down” doesn’t exist and here’s the evidence. First, Most people believe in this myth thanks to the movies and TV that occupy so much of our time. Hollywood used to use steel cables hooked to a car to jerk actors off their feet when they were shot. Now they use high speed cable drums but the effect is the same. It’s very spectacular, but not to be confused with reality. (And while we’re here, cars don’t explode when hit by a bullet, even if the gas tank is pierced. LOL) Second, such a concept violates the laws of physics. The energy transfer from the bullet to a human body is simply not sufficient to knock a human to the ground. The bullet is too small and the human is too big. Third, and probably most obvious, if there were such a thing as “knock down power” it would happen every single time that someone was shot. But it doesn’t. When people are shot without being aware that it’s coming they don’t move away from the gun at all. There’s plenty of proof of this on film. One that comes to mind comes from the Vietnam War, the execution of the North Vietnamese officer who is shot in the head by his captor, a South Vietnamese officer. The gun is almost against the head of the NV but when the shot is fired, he’s not knocked down. In fact, he’s barely moved. He fall straight down, his legs collapsing and his butt lands right where his feet were. If “knock down” existed he would have been pushed, at least a little, to the side, but he’s not.

LC: More film evidence exists on the Second Chance series of video put out by Richard Davis who makes bullet resistant vests. He’s shot himself hundreds, perhaps thousands of times with all kinds of handguns and had himself shot by all sorts of rifles, and not once has he ever been knocked down. In fact, I have video of him standing on one leg while being shot by a .30 caliber rifle to demonstrate that “knock down” doesn’t exist.

LC: It sometimes happens that someone about to be shot sees it coming. In those circumstances it’s natural to move away from the shooter. My theory is that the muscles are already “cocked and locked” so when the bullet hits they respond by giving the appearance that the person has been knocked down by the bullet, but as we’ve seen, it doesn’t happen.

LC: If you’re after “knock down power” hit your opponent with a car. And now back to dogs.

Jack Callahan wrote: Lastly, I think MOST, PSD's in the US are trained to target primarily the arms. Should be taught to target the MAN, if arm isn't available, bite whatever they can get. I like a high "Leaping Tackle", agree it has a safty effect like you describe...and realize it also is easier to dodge.

LC: I teach two separate bites. From the rear just about any bite the dog gets will bring down the suspect. A high bite will usually topple him over but has the dangers I already mentioned. It’s also, as you mention, fairly easy to dodge. A leg bite or a butt bite will usually trip the suspect, bringing him to the ground. An arm bite, if it’s available will usually have the same effect. But from the front I want the dog to bite on a line that runs from bicep to bicep (with the arms held horizontally) across the chest. Such a bite is extremely painful, getting pain compliance, if the suspect is in such a mode, and it makes most suspects loath to try to pull the dog from the bite because his face is so close to the dog’s teeth. If a dog launches into such a bite he may knock the suspect down but again, it’s pretty easy to dodge. I like for the dog to run very close to the suspect’s feet and then go straight up for the bite. It’s not as impressive as the WHACK that occurs with a long launch, but it’s very hard to dodge. To teach this bite requires a very skilled decoy and they’re in short supply. But it produces a bite that is more real than show.

LC,
maybe they can move these threads, as they are way off the original subject matter. I'll answer her so they stay together, appoligize to anyone wanting to read about Border Collies.
I don't think the guy I talking about was ever shot, I'll ask next time I see him.
he fell pretty much like you describe the public execution. Not thrown across the area.
HE Thought He was shot, which played a big part in his reaction. Most people Iv'e talked to, that have been shot...liken it to a punch or slap, and a burning feeling. I don't want to find out to continue the bite vs shot debate lol. If I ever am shot , and am alive enough to know about it...I plan on surviving...too many people give up.
In shootings Iv'e witnessed, victims I've seen or spoke to...the reactions are greatly varied...but never like Hollywood. that's why ammunition companies keep trying to develop a "Magic" bullet. My dept. has changed rounds three times in ten years, in reaction to percieved failures. Shot placement never seems to enter the picture lol.
As far as teaching a bite other than the arm, that would have to be up to a individual dept training course. Handlers are instructed that dogs are taught to bite and hold left or right arm...if nether is available... bite and hold the man. Dogs have to recieve training to be comfrotable on other areas of the body.
This doesn't give any room for nonsence, misunderstanding in courtroom testimony.
I imagine it would be difficult to train a "Close up, Frontal bite to the chest arm" without experienced decoys. Especially if a dept starts with two year old pre- trained dogs.

Jack Callahan wrote: I imagine it would be difficult to train a "Close up, Frontal bite to the chest arm" without experienced decoys. Especially if a dept starts with two year old pre- trained dogs.

LC: Difficult? LOL. Close to impossible without experienced decoys. I have a few friends that have taken bites for me that are former Certified French Ring Decoys. They can do it. I’d hesitate to use a SchH decoy, not to diminish them but they usually don’t take body or leg bites.

LC: There are some techniques for getting the dog to focus there, keeping the body still and moving just the shoulder/arm area, tapping that area with a stick. With a backtied dog you can wear the jacket of the suit backwards. That forms a fold in the fabric in the armpit making a “bite bar” there to help the dog feel comfortable for the first couple of bites. Make sure you watch the dog closely to see where he’s looking. A very civil dog, especially one who works in fight drive, may be looking the decoy in the eye. If so, that’s where he’s gonna go. It’s hard to keep decoys if they keep getting bitten on the face. LOL. Wait for him to look at the area you want him to bite and then invoke the bite.

Lou as usual is correct. This thread has gone way off course. Feel free to move over to the Police K9 section. Good posts guys. Topic closed.