HI, I am an american living out of country, so I cannot find a good vet or person that is feeding raw to discuss this with.

I have a 5 m old GSD male puppy who is eating raw. I am very concerned about his calcium/phosphorous ratio. He went through a MASSIVE growth spurt over the past 2 months, and has a slight limp for the past week. I have been feeding poultry only, trying to get him back to normal poops after a bout of diarrhea over the holidays from people giving him processed store bought treats, table scraps, etc...... Basically I have been cutting up whole chickens and turkeys and feeding them this way with some liver. He is getting 1.6 lbs per day (occassionally less, occassionally more) which is roughly 2 % of his expected 80 lb adult weight. He also gets fish at least once per week, (forgot to add that) and is eating a bit of beef. Trying to expand his diet slowly.

Anyways, point is, that I have read on here about pano, and over the past week, he has a left shoulder limp (appears to be this). There is a small possibility that it is just from rough play with a dog I was watching, but I don't want to run to the vet just yet to pay for x rays, when he clearly isn't in that much pain. He is eating about 30% bone all the time right now. I just for the life of me don't understand. I have BARFERS in one ear telling me that they should only get 10% bone but that doesn't work, he gets the squirts like a madman. Then Lonsdale and others who regularly feed bone at every meal. So, what do you all think, and should I reduce bone, and can anyone please tell me where to find the information to calculate the calcium / phosphorous ratio? and how to do it? Please be kind. I am not a big idiot, I am just learning. I honestly am getting tired of the constant worry about if I am doing this right, but he has terrible allergies now brought on by what I believe is vaccinosis. The vets both will not call it that, but he got terrible skin infections after both rounds, (the one the breeder did) and the one I stupidly went and had done without realizing that it even really existed. Dumb me. Anyways, the Raw diet has helped him out a lot. He was terrible looking before we started, and his poop was horrendous, and his coat was falling out and he constantly had itchiness etc. So, I hate to give up on it, I just can't find anyone to help out and I am concerned with the amount of bone he is getting. I am just totally confused on what a correct amount of bone would be right now? . Thank you if you can help! Danielle

He also regularly gets whole eggs (3-4 times per week)

Hi Danielle, Welcome to the forum. I am not one of the "raw experts" but found this thread which might be of help.

A few questions however... how much liver are you giving? I have to provide that in very small quantities or my dogs develop diarrhea.

Also, are you providing any fish oil and vitamin E?

I know the "experts" will see your post before long and will help you with this!

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=208055

The best indication of whether the amount of bone in the diet is correct is the quality of the poop. If it is firm, small, and not too difficult to produce, then you're fine. Too hard, crumbly or shows signs of constipation means too much bone.

Soft poop can be caused by any number of things, but chief among them is too little bone.

The limb pain could very well be pano. My leonberger had a mild spell of it at about that age. Our ver gave her a few days of an NSAID and she was fine thereafter.

If everything else is okay, this seems to me like a watch and wait. If it worsens, a trip to the vet is in order.

The raw bones you're feeding come with built in calcium phosphorus ratios that are correct. Those ratios get out of whack on diets that don't include raw bone, or when people add calcium supplements incorrectly.

A few more thoughts.

Mine eat bone in every meal too. What percentage? I have no idea. The meals are about half "raw meaty bones" but the amount of bone in those items varies--a chicken back is much bonier than a chicken thigh. When people talk about the amount of bone in the diet, sometimes they mean JUST bone, sometimes they mean meaty bones, which of course isn't all bone. So it's confusing.

Which is why knowing your dog and monitoring poop is important. You learn be doing when to add a bit more muscle meat or when a bit more bone is in order. A meal or two here or there that aren't exactly balanced isn't going to hurt your dog. Balance over time.

Hi Danielle,
I don't really have much to add to the great advice you have already gotten from Barbara and Tracy. But I just wanted to say welcome! Also, commend you on starting on the raw diet!

It is just a great way to give your pup the very best and it sounds like it is really helping him.
I have a female that started itching when she was really young also and she is now 3. I eventually ended up taking her to a derm vet and we now have her on shots for her allergies.

But I will say that the raw diet is the best thing you can do.
Are you giving salmon oil and vit E ?
The reason I ask is because the one thing that does really help with itching is salmon oil. Eventually when you are getting his stools normal again you may want to look into feeding a therapeutic dose of salmon oil daily. This is one thing that for sure has helped my girl with her allergies.
It will help with skin and coats issues but more importantly, it is a powerful anti-inflammatory that will help with allergies.

I hope that you can get his limp to go away and just want to wish you and he all the best! It's great to have you here!

So, thank you all VERY much for the great information. His poop is really great on bone in every meal, and small amounts of liver. I think from all the postings that bone in every meal is okay, and that I should stop being neurotic about the situation.????

I will research the correct vit E / salmon oil amount to feed him. I will also just continue monitoring the limp and not worry about my calcium/phosphorous ratio. It makes sense that the ratio is correct when the diet is being fed in meat and bones as they would eat if we weren't constantly monitoring and obsessing over what they ate.

I got a major crack up out of my vet telling me to cook potatoes and pasta and oatmeal or porridge for the dog. I was thinking oh yeah, when was the last time we saw a dog just boil himself up a pot of pasta for dinner and then cook some chicken to go with it..... ????? I mean really. Not mine. Dude is eating anything he can find on the walk... he doesn't discriminate.... hahahahahahaha

 Quote: danielle keith

.... my vet telling me to cook potatoes and pasta and oatmeal or porridge for the dog

And a nice Cabernet Sauvignon .....


How much does he weigh?



" I have been feeding poultry only, trying to get him back to normal poops after a bout of diarrhea over the holidays from people giving him processed store bought treats, table scraps, etc...... Basically I have been cutting up whole chickens and turkeys and feeding them this way with some liver. "

Post back as soon as his poops are good logs so we can help with adding additional items (but for now, you have the basics covered, except for the fish oil and E). If you don't have

Also, do you mean just bits of bone in the poop?


eta

Oops .... I see you are now seeing good poops. Meaning logs? How many days?



Edited by Connie Sutherland (02/10/2011 03:48 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Hey Connie... he is weighing in about 55 lbs. He's HUGE! But still slim and ribs felt easily. I think I will cut back on food for a few days because he doesn't look at all like he should gain more if there is concern about growth plate or displaysa issues (sorry for the misspelling... it's 5 am here and I' don't want to google how to spell it correctly .

He was having nice poops then I fed some beef and it was a bit runny yesterday, but not squirt worthy. I think I'll just put an ounce of beef in the form of brisket or steak or whatever we are having in with his bones and just reduce the amt of chicken or turkey MM he gets. I didn't feed bone with the beef because I started freaking out that he was getting over calcified....... So, to be expected that he had a not so firm poop. Silly me.

Should I just add an ounce at a time of beef MM to his regular poultry diet and see how long it takes to firm him up? I got a bunch of chicken hearts from the grocery store, should I feed these at some point? They were SUPER cheap so I just got them and thought I'd ask. Also, what do you do for recreational bones? I gave him a trotter before his big irregularity over christmas happened, and he seemed to like it. Is this appropriate? I didn't notice him getting runs from it either, although he did hide it and I found it a couple of weeks ago! Gross...... I guess he wanted it for an appetizer with his cabernet and pasta...... hahahaahahha.

Okay, I really don't have good access to a pet store that carries supplements. The ones over here that I have found don't have a very good selection of supplements, so can I feed human grade vit/salmon? if there is any human grade salmon...... How do you feed your Vit E/Salmon.... Also... when the bleep can I quit feeding 3 x a day? 6 months I suppose? hahahahha... okay, well, he's had good poop until yesterday for over 2 weeks. So, if all this helps, I'm all ears! thanks so much! Danielle

you can introduce the beef (or any new) muscle meat gradually, and then just watch poop. Adjust as necessary.

Since it seems that you are feeding whole chickens and turkeys (did I read that right?)--they already come with a lot of muscle meat in the breasts and thighs. Unlike feeding nothing but chicken backs, for example, which would require the addition of more muscle meat from whatever source. So you will (like we all do) just go by instinct on bone-to-meat. It's not difficult, or an especially exact science.

Chicken hearts or gizzards can be counted as muscle meat. Counter-intuitively, they are not "organs" for the purposes of raw-feeding. Those would be liver and kidney, for the most part. And small (tiny) amounts should be introduced into the diet. They are important, having nutrients that aren't found in other parts of the carcass.

Yes, human fish oil supplements are just fine. That's what I use. I use the same gel caps I take myself for the dogs.

(((Just for clarity, we're talking salmon oil--not fresh salmon flesh, which should not be fed to dogs.)))

You can switch to 2 x feeding if you want to. Mine were never feed three meals. They started with 2 from the get-go. I suppose tiny puppies beneft from three meals because they eat so much in a day. But by 3-4 months, I think 2 meals is fine. Just my opinion and experience.

I don't do recreational bones, but many people do. It's not really part of the conversation about diet. They are toys. By definition, a recreational bone is one that cannot be consumed (they might scrape or gnaw at it and remove some, but it's not really food.) If the dog can eat the whole thing, it's food. The line between the two is often based on the size of the dog. For a tiny dog, a turkey leg could be recreational. For a GSD, it's food. Just be careful with any bones that are so hard they could be a tooth-breaking risk. Cow leg bones are designed to hold up a thousand pounds of cow, so they are pretty dense.

Keep up the good poops! New things slowly is the ticket.

thank you soooo much!!!!!!!!!! really, you all have been so helpful without treating me like an idiot... I appreciate it so much......