Congrats Vince,

You did have to spoil it by bringing "them" in, didn't you.

Yes I do remember those conversations, I haven't heard form them recently, wonder what happened? Maybe they got tired of finding out they are wrong?

Cathy the Quack and her sidekick Kent the Teutonic Wizard? "Nazi GSD wave attacks" goes down as the most stupid post EVER on this board.

Pretty funny stuff. Nice work over the last grand Vince. You da man.

LC: To illustrate a point, these are just a few examples that I’ve observed

LC: I saw a dog that would not out. His handler had been choking him into unconsciousness with a choke chain for over three years to get him release bites, both real and in training on equipment. Not just choked until he gagged, but choked into full UNCONSCIOUSNESS.

LC: I saw a dog that was missing the hair on the right side of his neck. The bare spot was from the top of his neck to the bottom of his neck and about 3/4" wide in the middle. The skin was raw and oozing. His handler had been working with a choke chain, doing a lot of OB, and had ripped out the hair and then abraded the skin.

LC: I saw a dog that had a very weak bark. His throat had been damaged by corrections from a choke chain.

LC: I saw a dog that did a recall with his ears back, his head down and his tail tucked tightly against his stomach. His handler had been using a pinch collar to make the dog come in faster.

LC: I saw a dog that bit well at one time but now was mouthing all over the sleeve of the suit. He would occasionally transfer to a leg bite. When his handler approached he dropped off and cowered to the ground. His handler had used a pinch collar with repeated corrections in an effort to get the dog to out.

LC: Are we seeing a pattern here. ANY tool can be abused. ANY tool can be misused. There is no tool that’s fool proof to the right fool. Misuse, abuse and stupid trainers aren’t limited to Ecollars. The problems that I’ve mentioned above will take quite a long time to fix. Obviously some of them, the damaged throat, will never recover. Who knows how many brain cells have been killed in the dog that had been choked out for three years? On the other hand, the problems that Alan has mentioned can be fixed by someone who understands the Ecollar in anywhere from 30 minutes to a couple of training sessions.

Alan wrote: What is a “Hot Spot”?? How are they caused and corrected???

LC: Faulty Ecollar training usually causes a dog to learn hot spot, but I’ve also seen a dog learn a hot spot with a throw chain. It’s where a dog comes to think that a piece of ground is causing him pain. The dog has made an improper association. Instead of realizing that it’s HIS performance that makes the stimulation stop, he thinks it’s being in a certain place. It’s VERY easy to fix.

Alan wrote: My point is this. If you are going to use an e-collar you should know about all the cause and effect that can be created.

LC: There are only about a dozen different things that dogs do when they get stimmed.

Alan wrote: This is a powerful psychological tool which involves negative reinforcement. You need to know the difference between punishment training and avoidance training. Timing is the factor.

LC: There are other tools that involve negative reinforcement, there’s nothing magic about it. It’s better if you know about the four sides of the Operant Conditioning box, but it’s not essential. I’ve taught quite a few people to use the Ecollar who have never heard of OC. Even on the lists among knowledgeable dog trainers there are disagreements as to the exact definitions of the words. Timing is not as important as some people would have you believe. If you have the timing to train a dog with a leash and an ordinary training collar, you have the timing to train with an Ecollar.

Vince P. wrote: Lou: A thousand posts later and people are still arguing over the same topics. LOL.

LC: It will never end Vince. Some people are afraid of some tools and until they learn how easy they are to learn to use they’ll stay in that place. This is the same mentality as people who are afraid of guns. I’ve taught hundreds of people to shoot too. LOL.

LC: Yaknow what really upsets me is that the guy who started this thread, Rocti, hasn’t called me as he’s been invited to do and he hasn’t popped back in since his first post to the Forum just over two weeks ago. Is he still having problems? Has he found a trainer who’s able to fix his dog? Has he stopped using the Ecollar? Has he been hit by a runaway garbage truck? His profile says that he’s a medical student but he can’t be that busy? Rocti are you out there.

Lou, you are “ The Master of Distractions”. I’d ride with you any night.

I think we all agree that any piece of equipment can be misused. I noticed that most e-collar problems “can be fixed by someone who understands the Ecollar in anywhere from 30 minutes to a couple of training sessions.” So it does take knowledge and expertise.

I’m not sure the question of “hot spots” has been adequately explained but I’m glad it’s an easy fix. I think someone else used the term “quick fix” when referring to e-collars.

I would like to hear more about “the four sides of the Operant Conditioning box” and how it relates to e-collar training. Maybe that would reduce the fears of e-collar use.

What concerns me is “how easy they are to learn to use”. Why aren’t we all using them???????

LC: Thanks for the kind words Alan. When I get back to work you’ve invited for that ride.

Alan wrote: I think we all agree that any piece of equipment can be misused. I noticed that most e-collar problems “can be fixed by someone who understands the Ecollar in anywhere from 30 minutes to a couple of training sessions.” So it does take knowledge and expertise.

LC: Of course it takes some knowledge and expertise. Doesn’t anything? If you gave a leash and training collar to someone who knew nothing about dogs or training would you expect any sort of control? Of course not. In fact, take a look at some of the boards where most of the members are not trainers, they're just pet owners. They’re asking such basic questions as, “How do I get my dog to stop pulling on the leash?” and “How do I housebreak my 7 month old Rottie puppy?” There has to be SOME basis of knowledge no matter what the tool.

LC: I’m not sure the question of “hot spots” has been adequately explained but I’m glad it’s an easy fix. I think someone else used the term “quick fix” when referring to e-collars.

LC: It’s possible that you have another meaning to the term. When I use that term it refers to a superstition that dogs develop with Ecollar training. Keep in mind that dogs are superstitious. They don’t believe in ghosts, well, at least I don’t think they do, but they will attribute all sorts of strange goings on to Ecollar training. Part of this is because the stimulation is outside their realm of experience so they don’t know quite what to make of it at first. They will attribute the person or place with the starting and stopping of the stimulation. It’s up to you; the trainer to show them that it’s neither the place nor the person that makes the stimulation stop. It’s obedience to the command.

LC: When I teach a recall I put the dog on a Flexi lead that has a 13' length. I’m standing in the center of a 26' diameter circle that the dog is free to roam around in. When he gets to the end of the Flexi, the edge of the circle, I give him a low-level stimulation and use the Flexi to pull him gently towards me. When he take 4–5 steps in compliance to the leash pulling, I shut off the stimulation. Probably he’ll run past me and head for the other side of the circle. When he gets there I repeat. I keep doing this until he’s staying with me, in the center of the circle. There are a couple of superstitions that can be developed this way. One is that the circumference of the circle is “hot” and should be avoided. Another is that I’m a comfortable place to be. Either or both are OK at this point. This usually takes about 10–15 minutes. Next I walk away from the dog and press and hold the button down. If I get to the end of the Flexi and the dog hasn’t moved, I use it to pull him towards me. As soon as he’s moving towards me I shut off the stimulation.

LC: When I first move away his superstition that the center of the circle is “safe” is broken. It sometimes takes 3–4 reps before this sinks in. The superstition that I’m the safe spot is reinforced. When the dog stabilizes near me I walk away and press the button again. After a few reps I begin to add a command to the mix as soon as I step away and press the button. The “hot spot” superstition is erased almost as quickly as it was created.

LC: But it’s been replaced by another “safe spot,” superstition; that I'm the new "safe spot." This manifests itself as “Velcro dog.” Where the dog sticks to my leg as we walk around. This usually takes the average pet owner (whatever that is) about three days. This dog is out of balance. Putting him back into balance will take almost as long. I do that by teaching the sit and then the sit-at-a-distance.

Alan wrote: I would like to hear more about “the four sides of the Operant Conditioning box” and how it relates to e-collar training. Maybe that would reduce the fears of e-collar use.

LC: OK but this discussion always brings some confusion because people can’t or won’t agree on the definitions of terms. It starts out with two definitions “Punishment” and “Reinforcement.” Punishment is not the “go to your room without dinner” thing that many people think of when they use that word. In OC terms it simply means something that will tend to make a behavior NOT repeat. Reinforcement is something that will tend to make a behavior repeat. There are two ways to use these tools. Negative, which means that you take it away, and positive, that you add something. So you have 4 sides of the box. +R, –R, +P and –P. Also keep in mind that animals are neither reinforced nor punished. THE BEHAVIORS ARE.

LC: Examples using an Ecollar are –R = shutting off an Ecollar stimulation and +P = pressing the button on an Ecollar. Pressing the button tells the dog when he’s wrong and releasing the button tells him when he’s right.

Alan wrote: What concerns me is “how easy they are to learn to use”. Why aren’t we all using them???????

LC: This one is easy Alan. They’ve been misused as you’ve seen, with the attendant problems for years. But some folks ignore, overlook or deny the problems. They’d prefer to use them and then try to fix the problems they’ve created. You’ve seen people do this, I’m sure. People who hear of using low level stimulation who have been using it the old way simply don’t believe that it will work. Some of they try it but they overlook the conditioning phase that’s necessary and so can’t make use of it at all. I’ve spoke to quite a few folks who say that they’ve tried it and it just doesn’t work. What they’ve done is to just start using low level stimulation. But this doesn’t work. A dog has to be retrained using the low-level stimulation before he’ll work with it. Some people have too much invested in staying where they are, they're afraid of change, so they badmouth anything new that comes along.

LC: The other side of this coin is how I introduce distractions. Introducing them at low levels and then dialing them up does that. This is done using distance and a dog’s “less favored” toys before moving them closer and using his favorite toys.