Hey all. I am new to training with remote collars, so I bought a vibrating one because I dont want to accidentally screw up my dog by being a novice, plus I don't have the budget for a $200+ good quality e-collar. Anyway, this vibrating collar is pretty much neutral stimulus to my 9 year old dog, I'm wondering if it is possible to make the vibration a conditioned punisher, so that I can use it to correct her if she fails to respond when she is off leash. Her responses are about 97% reliable, but up until now we have only trained with R+ and negative punishment, so she has never really had positive punishment, which has left some gaps.
The only cues she sometimes ignores are leave-it, heel (but still learning that one with duration and distractions), and once she blew off a recall when she was scenting after deer.
Can anyone give me some tips on how to condition the collar to mean a correction, if its possible? Thanks!

Punishment is punishment whether it comes from vibration or an electrical stimulus. The whole "OMG a SHOCK!" thing is exclusively human.

The vibration is actually harsher than a modern e-collar would be in many cases. I would suggest that rather than spending time trying to make this collar work that you return it and work on a conditioned recall instead until you have the cash for an e-collar. Most vibrating collars I've seen are cheap little collars that work on old technology that can buzz your dog at the wrong time or not at all when you need it. The range on the box tends to be "optimistic" at best.

An e-collar is not just used as a positive punishment correction like a leash pop. It is also used as a subtle source of pressure for negative reinforcement. I find the negative reinforcement("escape" training) style training that Michael Ellis teaches is more effective and with less stress.

If you're not comfortable using an e-collar don't use another type of aversive collar thinking that it's any different. Honestly the e-collar is not hard to use there's just a set of skills to master with it that are hard to put into print.

If you are comfortable using an e-collar the Mini Educator is only $180.

A good intro to pressure is to do leash pressure training. If you're comfortable with your timing on that odds are you will be fine using an e-collar.

Hi Cathy, thanks for the answer. I just started leash pressure training after watching Michael Ellis explain it in a video.

I always thought escape training was better for dogs just starting out with obedience. I was hesitant to do it because I didn't want to confuse or worry her with a new method after all this time since she is used to a different way, especially where most of her responses are already solid.

If I start with teaching giving in to leash pressure, how would I segway into pressure with the collar? Just add it at the same time as leash pressure and eventually fade the leash? One thing I never understood about escape training is at what point you fade the negative reinforcement and start cuing behavior without the stim. That's a big reason I never used it. Just like when R+ trainers don't teach how to fade the rewards.

My Boxer was 8 years old when I started training him and after introducing him to leash pressure work he picked up the escape training just fine. I don't necessarily use the leash pressure along with the e-collar it's just a way of teaching the dog to respond constructively to pressure. That's something a lot of R+ dogs don't know how to do so they just freeze or become frantic.

Teaching the recall first is normally the easiest for both the dog and owner. It's easy to assist with the leash if you need to.

I start fading the stim when I see that they clearly understand what the proper response to the stim is. Basically when the dog has figured out how to turn off the collar. Most dogs you suddenly see them complying faster than they were. Once I have understanding I do some reps where I just bump the button as I say the command and then I just give the command without hitting the button.

 Quote: Cathy Goessman

Punishment is punishment whether it comes from vibration or an electrical stimulus. The whole "OMG a SHOCK!" thing is exclusively human.

The vibration is actually harsher than a modern e-collar would be in many cases. I would suggest that rather than spending time trying to make this collar work that you return it and work on a conditioned recall instead until you have the cash for an e-collar. Most vibrating collars I've seen are cheap little collars that work on old technology that can buzz your dog at the wrong time or not at all when you need it. The range on the box tends to be "optimistic" at best.

An e-collar is not just used as a positive punishment correction like a leash pop. It is also used as a subtle source of pressure for negative reinforcement. I find the negative reinforcement("escape" training) style training that Michael Ellis teaches is more effective and with less stress.

If you're not comfortable using an e-collar don't use another type of aversive collar thinking that it's any different. Honestly the e-collar is not hard to use there's just a set of skills to master with it that are hard to put into print.

If you are comfortable using an e-collar the Mini Educator is only $180.

A good intro to pressure is to do leash pressure training. If you're comfortable with your timing on that odds are you will be fine using an e-collar.

EVERYTHING that Cathy said, in SPADES My Dobermans actually LOVE WEARING their Mini-Educator ecollars !!!

I took the leap and bought a mini educator 300. Still getting the hang of it before introducing it to my dog, it is a bit of a learning curve for me with all the different settings, compared to my old low-tech vibrating collar, haha. One thing I noticed is how much heavier the receiver is than the cheap collars I am used to.

Anyway, I am just a little worried about what stim feels like to my dog. On my hand it didn't hurt, but on my neck it did. I am also wondering about whether it is safe to use stim if her fur gets wet, like after she swims or something.

 Quote: Allie Gagnon

I took the leap and bought a mini educator 300. Still getting the hang of it before introducing it to my dog, it is a bit of a learning curve for me with all the different settings, compared to my old low-tech vibrating collar, haha. One thing I noticed is how much heavier the receiver is than the cheap collars I am used to.

Anyway, I am just a little worried about what stim feels like to my dog. On my hand it didn't hurt, but on my neck it did. I am also wondering about whether it is safe to use stim if her fur gets wet, like after she swims or something.

I am NO "expert" on dog physiology, so hopefully, others with more knowledge will reply soon...

But while we're waiting, I will say this:

Have you WATCHED the "demonstration trailer" that Ed Frawley did with an Educator ecollar ??? They were joking about the ZAPS, but got serious enough to let everyone know that the Ultra-Low stim is NOT painful, even to "wimpy" humnas...

Also, it has always been my understanding that a dog's hide is MUCH more "loose-fitting" (loosely attached) than a person's skin -- If I've been misinformed about this, I trust someone here will correct me on it

My dogs don't go swimming, but hunting dogs who retrieve in WATER do wear ecollars without problems, so (???)

Water doesn't really effect the e-collar. There's a trainer who demonstrated that by putting the e-collar on his neck and then getting into a pool and stimming himself while he was still wet. That's why all the hunting dog trainers can use it with no problem.

My Cattle dog is extremely touch sensitive to the point where he hates certain surfaces and is muzzled for vet exams but works happily in an e-collar. If it was actually painful there's absolutely no way he could work in one. He'd fall apart. My AmBull girl who I don't use a prong with because it's too much for her works with one just fine as well. Certain parts of my inner arm I can feel a level 3 as a strong pinch and other parts of my arm it has to be about a 15 or so before I can even feel a slight tingle.

The ONLY indicator of proper levels is the dog. My Cattle Dog generally works on a 3 but can go as high as 60 when he really decides he wants something. He didn't even vocalize on that 60 because he was so determined to get that food on the floor but tonight he was just hanging out and decided to try and snack on poop(disgusting habit). I stimmed him at level 22 and he yelped. I expected that level of reaction and wanted it as I'm trying to form an aversion to eating poop. It's just all relative. As you get more comfortable with it you'll get a feel for what level for what situation. Most dogs don't swing as wide on the range of levels as my Cattle Dog does.