Quote: AJ Evans

 Quote: Anne Jones

I believe that Junior is getting the idea to use the stim in conjunction with markers (like a clicker) from a trainer that will not remain un-named (Fred Hassen of Sit means Sit) whose e-collar training methods employ these types of 'skills'. Although I may be mistaken.

The "trainers" that I bought Aragon from were trained in that "trainer who will remain un-named" school of thought. I can personally testify to how stupid and harmful it is to a dog. I only wish that back then I knew what I know now.

I hope Junior has stuck with the thread. A whole giant piece of education right here.

E-collars are a great tool...used properly & in the right hands. It is just another tool in the tool box, just as the prong/pinch collar, DD collar etc. etc.. But can have far more devestating results if used improperly then most other tools.

I think that many people think it is the majic bullet in dog training. It isn't. It can do as much harm as good...depending on how it's used.

Sorry, AJ, that your experience was so horrific for your dog. Sad that people take advantage of newbes & their dogs. One of the reasons that most of us here would never leave our dogs anywhere for training. I want to be the one that my dogs look to for all the fun & learning in their lives. I want them to love to work with & for me.

 Quote: Junior alva

Thank you for the reply. What Michael Ellis videos do you recomend? I have the food and tug video. Grat videos.. Can't I use a low level stim at the same time I use the yes marker?

I don't know if you've seen these Junior, but M.Ellis explains how he uses escape/avoidance training and how he conditions the dog to understand it, and when he would introduce it. If you're going to train your pup using his stuff, these will probably help. (And yes, put the collar away for quite a while)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBb9PZ5SJrE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDZqVpGVy60

 Quote: Anne Jones

.... It is still not the correct way to use markers & e-collars to stim a dog at the time of marking a behavior. ....

Ed completely agreed with you, Anne. In fact, here is what he said:

"A YES is a release marker, and stimulation has nothing to do with a marker for doing something correctly."

whoa ok there guys . . . thanks for shedding some light on the ( trainer ) who shall remain un-named , because i was beginning to think i'd missed a whole week of school when the mention of an e-stim came up as a ( positive !? ) marker .

that might fly on some other boards junior , but it won't get any support here .

junior , you can't train a dog with a written prescription . . . there are things you need to be attending to throughout the dogs' development . the dogs' mind is so malleable in the puppy stage , that you are only challenged by your imagination , time and skill as a dog handler to lay the foundation for the dog you want .

i understand your " don't want to be not ready " mindset , but the fact is from the time you got the dog , you started training . not necessarily formal , classroom training , but the little things that develop the relationship . probably the first thing should be to get the dog to want to be with you , to want the things you have , and to want to do things with you .

the things you do one day , begin to make it possible to do the next thing the next day .

don't try putting a schedule on the puppys' development . i don't know what your goals are for the dog , but wouldn't it be cool to be able to reflect back and say " i never had to use an e-collar on that dog "

Thank you all for your posts. There are many things to consider and many things to learn. I have fallen in love with the methods I am learning from Michael Ellis. I will continue to view the videos.

 Quote: Junior alva

Thank you all for your posts. There are many things to consider and many things to learn. I have fallen in love with the methods I am learning from Michael Ellis. I will continue to view the videos.

Good.

Please ask anything you want!