Gordon,

I will let you know when the specific date is for the trial here in Phoenix. Maybe we can get together for the trial. They generally run some seminars about the scoring the day before, work some dogs and certify some agitators (Bad Guys). In the mean time if you want more information send me an e-mail and I can put you in touch with Bob (the Training Director).

Dave,

Give 'em hell. One thing around here is that there are some titled dogs from other sports and compitators that have been around long enough to have approached the local Training Director about improving their scores and working on some attention heeling. The dogs have improved significantly as a result of the work they have put in. I think once people see the type of training that results in good scores they will know what they need to train for and how that relates to scoring. Like I said before, most of the people involved have never been involved with any formal dog sports and think they can get by on just the protection aspect and forget that the obedince is half the score. Without the proper obedinece you aren't going to get anywhere. If you are going to train for NAPD make sure you work your dogs for making a passive bite and a fighting out. NAPD likes to use both in the trials. Many people don't train for either of these things and it zeros out a lot of dogs. Also train for the dog making a bite in places other than the arms. They like to put things in the agitators hands like a bucket to keep the dog off the arms and abdomen. Another thing they like to do is suprise the dog as it comes around an obstacle by hitting it in the face with a bucket of water or spary from a hose. It really suprised me the number of dogs that this backed off.

I know several people who have titled dogs in Schutzhund who now work in NAPD. The general consensus seems to be that since Schutzhund is very choreographed, the obedience work must be very precise. There is less emphasis on obedience in personal protection because the scenarios are always changing and the dog has to be ready to make decisions on his own. I have personally witnessed dogs with excellent obedience become tentative in their bitework during surprise scenarios. Usually beginning level bitework in personal protection includes very light obedience work.

As for the guy bragging that he did 6 hours of obedience training the night before the trial...there are jerks in every sport. Personal protection work is just that; teaching one's dog to be ready to protect the owner, not to be a regimented obedience machine.

Are you suggesting that decent obedience is not possible unless the situation is choreographed?

How did the Schutzhund dogs do with obedience in the NAPD trial?

And if the suggestion is that a well trained protection dog can't do high quality obedience how do explain Yourie, Kuy, Kosta, Fedor, Bomber, Maddy, and half a dozen of the other top competitors in NAPD? All do very good attention obedience. As much as I still hate to say it, much of the obedience work in NAPD needs improvement. It can be done thogh, the improvement from 2000 to 2001 in Jordan was tremendous. It just takes more work and attention to the type of obedience that will score well.

Are you suggesting that decent obedience is not possible unless the situation is choreographed?

I am sure it is possible. With the intelect that GSD has (watch them how they are trying to animate their toys when there is nobody to play with them or trying to get their way, etc.) he sure will perform under stress situation, may be not in his perfect way, but his brain would work and find the solution. It proves once again that the dog will perform in diversified situation if he is used to diversification in surrounding or the game rules. (I have been studying pschycology and watching my grandma doing experiments with mice in the lab). All in all if the mice with their small brains can adapt to the change, what about our big furry guys...

No, I'm not suggesting they can't do both obedience and protection work. I believe it can be done...have seen it. I was commenting on the apparent lack of emphasis on structured obedience in beginning personal protection and the explanations I've received from people who trained in both sport and protection. (The Schutzhund people were working different dogs in protection.) In fact, I'm currently working in motivational, attention based obedience for use in personal protection. I've been exploring different opinions and the experiences people have encountered with obedience/protection training.

Richard, please elaborate on your statement that "it just takes more work and attention to the type of obedience that will score well". I'm assuming that by "type of obedience" you are referring to the type of training used with the dog. (I am soliciting advice <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) I've been asking people about the possibility that if a dog is trained via motivational methods, he'd learn to make correct choices. This in turn could carry over to his being able to feel confident in making choices in bitework. Anyone familiar with personal protection scenarios knows why I ask about this. And what about the opinions of police k-9 handlers who state that they'd rather rely on protection trained dogs than Schutzhund (sport) dogs?

As a police officer and schutzhund competitor, I have seen many quality k-9's and sport dogs.
Most of the problems I have seen are related to training and could be remedied in a few weeks time.

Pauline,

There are 2 ways people are training the attention heeling around here. The first is do standard obedience with the dog and then teach the attention heeling later in a seperate context. The other is to use the methods like Purely Positive. There are advantages to both.

In the first method the dog is taught obedience for the "real world". Not working in that terrible head position all the time. Once that is done and the dog is a little older, with better concentration, they move to the attention obedience and teach the dog to do that. With basicly the same methods as in Purely Positive.

In the second the dog is taught the attention heeling first and may only do that. Since that is what you want for the obedience portion of the compitition, that is all the dog knows. I am not sure I want my dog to do the attention heeling all the time. So I am doing a little of both.