Need help!

Blackie, a 5 yr old German Shp/Belg Mal mix MWD has sever aggression towards firearms.

Blackie will stay in the heel or down position while the aggitator or handler fires the firearm (.38 or 5.76) with little reaction (minor whinning) but intense focus on the shooter.

When the handler finishes and lowers the firearm he breaks his position and attacks the firearm. He has not shown aggression toward the handler only the firearm (with near misses of the handlers hand being eaten in the process)

We have him on a prong collar and have corrected away from the firearm. He will sit with his whole attention on the firearm. You can watch as his frustration builds (he begins to salavate and his whole body begins to shake) and he eventually breaks and attacks the gun again (the gun is laying on the ground inanimate at this time).

We have moved him into a back tie with a prong. Layed the gun on the ground and waited for his reaction. His frustration build and he breaks to attack the gun. Corrections were given and he returned to a sit position. Focus remained on the firearm. He again broke and attacked. Blackie reached the point that he would rather endure the correction to go after the gun.

The current plan is to lay out several guns in the training yard. Blackie is brought into the training yard and we do basic obedience. When he notices the firearms I am to maintain his focus on obedience. Hopefully he will realize the firearms are not a threat and he will learn to ignore them.

When I first picked up Blackie as a handler, I could not even sling my GAU over my shoulder. He would see the butt swing out from my right side and move to attack the weapon. I now can wear my GAU but I have to be very careful (eys on my dog rather than the intended threat) deploying it to a ready or firing position.

I think he was pushed through firearm training to soon and fast while he was in school. If a dog is pushed in training to early or to fast is this problem fixable? Currently e-collar training is not an option.

Any new suggestions would be helpful.

Sounds to me like a prey response problem. Some dogs that are gun "aggressive" have a crazy prey drive trigger to the raport of the gun. They also begin to identify firearms as prey items and will start after them whenever they are around. . .just like if they were to see a ball in your hand.


Weird stuff. I don't know how to fix that problem. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Good luck buddy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It sounds loke the dog was introduced to fire arms in bite work training .I dont know how long the dog has been doing this or just how deeply ingrained it is in the dog. I dont know if you can fix it or not but I have helped some dogs quite a bit. The first thing you need to do is change how the dog thinks about the weapon. You dont want to keep doing situation were a decoy is standing infront of the dog firing it. To back tie the dog and correct him for going after weapon isnt helping either. What I have done is do several sessions standing a distance away from the hanler and have the handler play ball with the dog, fire the weapon the same time the handler throws the ball. Then later start fire when the dog is picking up the ball too. After sevral secssions of this start doing the same thing in obedience firing occasionally and firing on the reward. When it looks like it is going good, and youve been doin this for a while you can try it some during bite work but have some one else fire it immediately after slipping the sleeve.As Im sure you can figure out Im just describing a way to slowly desensatize the dog to the weapon and if any association is made with it it is one of reward or something good as opposed to one of frusration or correction.I think this is the way to go. I dont know if it would work with this dog but Id try it.

I have seen dogs like this. I even have one doing it in my video “Tactical Training for Police Service Dogs”. This problem is the same as a dog that is badly locked in prey. It was caused by bad training and its going to require some pain and many many repetitions fix the problem.

Assuming you cannot use an electric collar as you wrote in your post.

Also assuming that this dog is a tough dog in the bite work with the appropriate drives. (Usually dogs that do this are tough.)

Start with the helper close in front of you with a sleeve and a whip or stick. If the dog OUTS well use a suite - the suite is just a big prey item for the dog. If the dog has an OUT problem use a sleeve. This is not a time to correct the OUT. You only fix one problem at a time and a sleeve can be slipped.

With the helper close (4 or 5 feet away) fire a round and when the dog gets aggressive towards the gun the helper steps closer and REALLY CRACKS the dog hard with the stick - really hard. The goal is to administer PAIN from the front not from the handler and not from a prong collar.

The original goal of gunfire work is to teach the dog that a gun shot indicates an immediate threat out front. The dog must learn the attack comes from that direction. So we are going back to basics and showing him that a real threat and a real ATTACK does come from the front directly after the gunshot. The dog must be taught that the attack is a serious issue that is going to hurt if he does not deal with it.

When you do this work the helper ALWAYS attacks at the gunshot. Even if the dog does not go after the gun.

The fight does not have to be long. The goal is not to fight the dog - the goal is to teach the dog when and where the attack comes from. Fighting too long just tires the dog out quicker which results in less repetitions. In fact be careful of not doing this to the point of exhaustion on the dog. That’s not good training.

If the dog continues to attack the gun then the pain was not high enough in the attack.

When the dog realizes what the training is all about then start to move the helper back away from you in increments. If the dog goes back on the handler the helper immediately comes up and hits the dog - even if the dog turns and comes on the helper before he gets there he still gets hit hard - this is like an automatic correction. The dog must learn that he has to focus on the real threat which is the bad guy out in front and not the handlers gun going off.

Doing the work this way eliminates the handler having to do any correction at all.

You should work towards having the final step be the helper 100 yards away and out of site. This is going to take some time and a lot of repeating. Remember that it takes a dog 30 times to learn an exercise and 90 to 100 times to correct a problem and make him unlearn a problem. So your work is cut out for you here.

A point to be made is that when the dog is going this correctly. When you fire and he alerts foreword and you send him – there need not be a stick hit. The dog can learn that if he attacks fast enough he eliminates the pain.

At any time if the dog reverts back to attacking the handler and gun then the helper comes right back in close and administers pain. This reminds the dog what the threat really is. Under this circumstance even if the dog comes off the handler and bites the helper as he closes in he still gets hit.

And for all the PETA ass holes out that that want to cry and piss and moan about causing this dog pain – all I can say is you need to be drafted into the army (because you would never enlist) and be sent to Iraq – get in a gun-fight where you pray to your mama that you live to see her again. Then in the middle of the gun-fight when you finally have the guts to fire your weapon you need to have your dog attack you. That’s how you learn the error of your ways and the need for good solid dog training.

Ed

I must congratulate you here – I read the problem statement and I must be honest, it takes a lot of time to apply one’s mind to a “pita” like this and come up with a do able solution, I honestly think that this correction training will work, will work if applied that is, I would also change the stick with a whip from time to time and crack it, as he bites the arm later on to proof him, and beat him with it as he lets go. – But let us know how this works out – good luck

And Ed I see you do have a funny bone/ side “Pray to your mama” Hay!!!!!

I can understand what is behind what Ed is saying. I can also see this as a remedy for the problem originaly stated. But Id like to know if giving the choice,( and Im not talking about the dog in this thread) would you not rather have a dog that is neutrel to gun fire ?

Having a dog be alert to a threat and neutral is the best behavior for a service dog. Obviously you do not need a dog jerking on the line to go when you are trying to double tap some fool thats tring to kill you.

I am closing this thread I think we answered the question.