We have been training our 2 1/2 yr old GSD in PP, particularly Protection Sports Assn. (PSA), for the last year. His obedience is good and his bitework excellent. Late last year he acheived a PSA 1 title. However, we have noticed that his obedience has suffered since then because he can not perform the on-field obed. exercises without being seriously distracted by the caller and/or field judges on the field. His heeling is unfocused and he has even run off the field during the excercise. He does not have any problem with the obed. excercises without others close to him on the field.

This is a relatively hard dog when it comes to protection (he hits very hard and always wants to bring on the fight). Even under severe distractions (bag of cans thrown at him, sprayed with water, etc.) he wants the agitator.

Can his obedience distraction be caused by the pressure of civil agitation? By this I mean loud and aggressive courage tests and tough fighting by agitator including hitting dog (mildly) with clatter stick. Or could this symptomatic of some other cause?

We would like to enter him in an upcoming trial but not if this behavior could be worsened by continuing this type of training. Obviously many details of dog and training program not mentioned here but has anyone seen this change in a dog before?

Thanks for your feedback.

Jim A. - WPB, FL

To have all that focus on the agitator is a good side effect in my opinion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> . I think he just enjoys the fight more than anything else. He just needs a little control. And since he's a pretty hard dog, you may want to try using a prong or e-collar to prevent him from lashing out. I think a good personal personal protection dog is always aware of what's around him and ready to take on a challenge, just like you describe him. But he needs to be under YOUR control at all times.

The problem is not bitework, its obedience.There are no shortcuts you simply have to train obedience into the dog. When and where the dog bites is obedience, its your desicion not the dogs. Your gonna have to do alot of scenario training and mix obedience in with your bitework.

Obedience is at the top of the to-do list. Work on obedience away from the protection work.

David made a great point. The only time the dog engages or aggresses is when you allow it to happen. They don't get to make the determination themselves. . .well. . .not really. . .WE give them a set of rules to operate with in protection situations and they MUST follow them. If they don't, the world comes crashing down on them.

I think a very common mistake that is made when doing personal protection work, especially with dogs that are on the edge to begin with, is that along with the aggressive part of "civil agitation" trainers neglect to work on exposing the dog to non-aggressive people in the training context.

*Really heavy defensive work is also going to give you a shyteload of problems as well, but that is a whole other thread.*


In other words, the dog needs to be exposed to both aggressive and non-aggressive people in the same training exercises. It also MUST be the actions of the person that dictate the dog's response, not the fact that there is just a person there.

That happens two ways.

First, the dog is only allowed to ALERT on command OR when there is obviously aggressive or suspicious behavior from the decoy. That means that the dog can NOT light up on anybody that just happens to be walking by. . .or walking up to the handler. . .or running by. . .or whatever. This takes a lot of work. In your civil aggitation you must have a decoy that can really play it up and do things that a real bad guy would do. We always talk about dog's having a natural sense of someone that is strange or someone that is a threat. This natural suspician needs to be developed in a way that teaches a set of cues that should evoke an alert from the dog without a command.

On the flip-side, I have found that you have to have AT LEAST three times the number of normal interactions with good people in the same context to counter-balance your bad guy work. You have to expose the dog to bad people and good people. They don't always have to be at the same exact time in the begining, but they should be at the same places and under the same conditions. During these interactions the good decoys must also play it up, they have to be very non-aggressive and nice. No aggression on your dog's part can be allowed here. Eyeballing the people, a little low grumbling, or very obvious suspician isn't a major concern. Depending on the dog, these things will usually diminish over time with the training. Lunging, barking, snarling, tooth showing. . .all of that crap should be corrected. You need to be able to read your dog, if it looks like there is a bite on the way. . .nip it in the bud. There have not been any cues to allow a bite yet.

Don't worry about training for the bad guy that is really nice up front, but then clubs you over the head. . .not yet.


Second, the dog is only allowed to engage (in any way whatsoever) when there are specific cues that you determine in your training.

The basic cues are usually a physical attack on the dog or handler, throwing something at the handler or dog, or the bite command. Any signs of engaging that the dog shows WITHOUT one of these cues must be corrected. In your training this progression of work is easy. If any of these things happen during your interactions with bad guys you allow the dog to bite, and/or give the bite command. Depending on the dog, he'll either just do it or will start to just do it after more repititions. If the dog pulls the trigger without one of these cues (or triggers, he he he <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) you snap his damn neck with the prong. (or whatever works for you and Fido)


If in your training scenarios, and of course during trials, the dog has only encountered bad guys . . .every person the dog sees in that context will be a bad guy and you will get behavior like that which you have described.

One could write a whole book on this, obviously I'm not the one to do it, but maybe that will give you something to compare your training to. This is what I do with my PPDs. Really actual bite work is only a very very small % of the work I do in "protection".


If you already do work like this, I'd re-examine the temperament of your dog and/or the protection training he has received.

Anyway, maybe Richard Cannon will comment. Good luck!

Thanks all for your responses, esp. Van Camp for details regarding scenarios. I think that the issue may be more subtle than my original message indicates, however. We do regularly train using 'innocent' bystanders in the protection exercises. The dog can weave through a crowd of 8-10 people to find the bad guy causing a disturbance in the group. He will also sit patiently while one decoy (in bite suite) walks quickly past while another does the same but with some subtle 'bad guy' distraction and take the bad one down. In other words, he does not act aggressively toward anyone other than the intended target - either under command or in a surprise scenario. Also, we do train obed. (heeling through a crowd, stay in motion, long down, etc.) on different days than protection.

My dog seems to be more than just distracted, but perhaps afraid of the bystanders - only in obedience routines. In the protection routines he is wary of bystanders but does not appear to be overly distracted or afraid of them.

Going back to the obedience theme, could this be that he is trying to make his own decisions (i.e. I know there is no one to bite here so I'll just do what I want)? Or could it be that he is so pumped for bitework that he nervously (but not aggressively) anticipates the bystanders? Or something else altogether?

Thanks again for your responses.

VC,

that was one hell of a post!

Jim,
How is your dog in social situations that include no bitework? does he show any unsureness or hesitations?

this is sounding like a potential fear-based issue (not a show-stopper) but something to be aware of, and train for.

The very first thing I would look at is how the training is being done. The dog doesn't seem to identify threatening vs. non-threatening in the obedience routines. This is a training issue.

I have seen something similar happen and heard of it happening with several dogs. In all the cases it happened it was a result of the dogs being either too aggressively corrected in obedience situations or when the aggitator was overly aggressive in protection work. The basic problem became a trained in fear. One dog had been put on an e-collar that was improperly used and the dog was severly shocked for any minor infraction, often with poor timiing so it couldn't identify what he did wrong. The dog became a huge spook. The dog wasn't a really strong dog to start with, but was doing very well in NAPD. After the e-collar training the dog was unreliable in any situation.

The other case was from a "trainer" that was crazy with agitation. He was using a cattle prod to teach the out. Providing no clear distinction between "good" and "bad" behavior. So the dog could never make a good judgement as to the intention of the agitator, so the dog just bit everybody. This was another dog that had done well in NAPD, and was turned in to an absolute basket case.

To treat this I would put more straight obedience in to the agitation sessions. Don't treat obedience and proteection as being seperate. The dog doesn't look at that way any way. The dog looks at them as being the same. The other thing is that there needs to be a clear distinction for the dog as to what is "good" and "bad" behavior. In all training situations I give the dog a bite command. If the dog breaks when it shouldn't it gets and out and down, then is taken back to the origional point and we start over. The obedience should just be worked in as a portion the total session.

I think that you know when you are doing only obedience, so you have different expectations than when you are doing protection. Put a video cammera on the entire session and watch the actions of the agitator in obedience vs protection are similar enough the dog can't tell the difference.

Matt,

Our dog has always been alert but relaxed in normal social situations (e.g. when we have visitors at home, walking in crowded places, etc.). However, since he has turned two (6 mos ago) he has been increasingly wary of strangers (not so with close friends or family) even in our house. As someone mentioned before, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing in a PPD. It just doesn't work for us in obed. trials.

His obed. (heeling off lead) used to be near-perfect. Now he is looking back at the caller and judges on the field to the point that he loses focus and has even run off the field. In PSA the judges follow closely behind the dog while they record scores.

A friend from another club thought that this fear of strangers walking closely behind the dog in obed. portion could be caused by higher levels of defense / civil agitation.

I know I'm trying to get into the dog's head which may be impossible but I want to correct the behavior before it is too late.

Thanks all.

Richard,

I think you are getting to the underlying issue. One thing I would also mention is that the dog's obed. in protection is very good overall. And he is not distracted by strangers but is alert to them. I attribute this to his expectation of his favorite reward - the bite. It's just his obed. that suffers (and, again, only when strangers are close by). There is no problem when the the judges are further away as in BH obed.

I appreciate your advice. I also think the camera will help point out some things that are not obvious at a glance.

Thanks for your advice.