Can someone tell me the difference in a personal protection dog and a schutzhund dog? I know that schutzhund excells in tracking and OB and protection, but what are the benfits to either one?

I had read on a web site that was selling GSDs that a PPD will protect you and put themselves between you and the "bad guy", and fight for you, where a schutzhund dog may not protect you in a real curcumstance, that they are only trained for the sport.

So Im confused. If schutzhund means protection, whats the difference other that the tracking and OB? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm fairly new to this also, But in my oppinion the main difference is tha Shlutzhund was a progarm produce to enhance the GSD by only breeding dogs that were certified and can work. These canadiates provide the breeding pool for the true GSD. They also provide a immense profit of the onwers of these special dogs.

Shulz training is a forum teaches disclipine you have to Track a certain way, the dog has to Bite a certain way, even Ob trails are routine and performed a certain way. Progressing from Bh-Shulz 3, most dogs can get a BH, not many (but obviously thousands) can attain schz III. A good handler is required to reach the top stair.

Protection training can be all three but does not have to be, It usually takes a higher quailty dog to dog Shulz training, most dogs of a certain breeds that have some prey drive and little defense drive can be taught protection work on one of these 3-4 levels. Protection training is in IO, three-4 levels (It could be decomposed more, pending the dogs use).

Basic Level 1. Ob, detereant barking and acting aggressive on command could be enough, (and maybe all the dog can do). Handler protection if it can.

Level 2 Intermediate Ob, Intermediate Protection(definitely handler and above, inside home protection, detain subject (don't attack unles he moves), maybe Object protection.

Level 3 Would be almost a patrol dog, but for Security rather then Police work, where a deterant is more the case rather then action. Here Object protection, Tracking, high level of Ob (because he working with the public maybe), and handler Protection, and all the above may be needed.

Usually a good Shulz dog could be trained to do protection, but a protection dog may not be able to go through strainous task of Shulz courses.

This is just my finding, it is only based on my Oppinon.

It's also a question of how serious the dog is. A lot of the schutzhund dogs work only in prey, and all they want is the sleeve. A PPD must learn to bite the man, not the sleeve.

Say you have a schutzhund trained dog, and you're attacked...the dog probably won't have a clue what's going on, he'll think about how this is a lot like the training situations you do for schutzhund, and will look for the sleeve like it's a game...but there's no sleeve, so he doesn't know where to bite. So he's not as effective as a PPD who knows exactly what he's supposed to do. Although, who would attack anyone walking a german shepherd is beyond me...*scratches head*

Look at it this way. The Schutzhund protection routine is very much like a martial arts routine. Like those really pretty sets of moves that kids learn in their Karate classes.


Just because someone knows the martial arts routine doesn't mean that he/she knows how to really fight though. Nor does it mean they would be any good in a real fight.


Being able to fight for real MAINLY depends on your temperament, or your mental and physical toughness. It also has to do with having done the extra training to prepare you for what could actually happen in a street fight with a nasty bareknuckled gang banger who wants to stomp your face in.


So in Schutzhund, dogs learn a routine that is pretty limited as far as real life protection scenarios go. The way that the Schutzhund routine is set up and the way the judging is set up makes it possible to train many different types of dogs in the sport. It also gives trainers a choice of how they want to train the SchH protection routine. To make it very simple we can say that there are three types of dogs doing Schutzhund.

Some dogs doing Schutzhund might not have the temperament necessary to really fight and when put in that situation they run or shut down completely.

Others may have the temperament necessary to really fight, but if put into a real situation they may not understand what is happening. They don't have enough experience or additional training to be able to react correctly and actually fight a bad guy who wants to hurt them.

The last group have so much of the temperament and natural fighting ability that even though they are only trained in Schutzhund they will eat someone alive if put into a real situation.


Lastly, there is Schutzhund training and there is Schutzhund training. . .LOL. A dog's ability to protect in any given situation can also have a lot to do with how they learn Schutzhund protection.


Are we more confused yet? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> LOL Robert, confusing is right, but I understand... I think <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I never thought of it that way, but your right. To me since Schutzhund means protection dog, I just would have thought it would have been taught like a PPD when doing the bite work. But the dogs personality and drive means alot. Thanks for the info everyone.

One of the main training techniques that I see which does not prepare a schutzhund dog for personal protection, is teaching the obsession for the sleeve, even after a dog has a solid foundation in prey and has some maturity. I've seen some very nice, national level schHIII dogs in their training, and none of them are trained to refocus on the man as a threat after the sleeve is slipped. That is not to say those dogs wouldn't protect the handler in a real situation, but I don't think these dogs are working in fight drive just because they are exposed to stick hits or the oncoming helper in the courage test. I believe the dogs I'm referring to could probably do fine in real personal protection with the correct training.

Chip,
True fight drive in dogs is actually rare. Most trainers that I know of who are involved with providing police canines bemoan the lack of fight drive as a real obstacle in providing quality dogs to departments right now.

VanCamp's description of the three type of "groups" for dogs in SchH is *perfect*.

If you have a real need or desire for personal protection, you'd better own a "group number three" type dog. Sadly they're rare. But I'll never own anything but one of those type dogs, if I have any say in the matter ( yeah, yeah, the showlines bitch is my *wifes* dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Originally posted by Chip Blasiole:
One of the main training techniques that I see which does not prepare a schutzhund dog for personal protection, is teaching the obsession for the sleeve, even after a dog has a solid foundation in prey and has some maturity. I've seen some very nice, national level schHIII dogs in their training, and none of them are trained to refocus on the main as a threat after the sleeve is slipped. That is not to say those dogs wouldn't protect the handler in a real situation, but I don't think these dogs are working in fight drive just because they are exposed to stick hits or the oncoming helper in the courage test. I believe the dogs I'm referring to could probably do fine in real personal protection with the correct training. First, many of the top end dogs will bite you. They will bite the dickens out of you. But, they are trained to obtain as close to 300 points as possible. Who cares about their practicality any more than the practicality of the high jump in track and field.
Now lets look at a dog that is worked in schutzhund as a foundation for other endeavors such as a PSD. These dogs are taught to be generalists. They need to be brought around to a different direction.
A great comparison is the martial artist that spends years refining the beauty of a form to compete with. They can be a world champion and not have a clue about the practical application of the components of the form. The other end of the spectrum is the martial artist... or fighter... that takes a skill and works and works on applying it to other combatants under a vast number of situations, they might not even know a form but they know the applications.
They all begin in the same place with physical fitness, skills basics, and conditioning then they take opposite directions in the work. This is the same in the protection dog work. The reality is that the best of the best find a mid way point to function from both in the martial arts and protection dog training. Don't get lost in seeking the application before you develope the form. There won't be good balance in the work. Just a little dog training philosophy from someone that has been there.

The one thing I would add is that SchH didn't start as an end point. It was a foundation and evaluation of the dog and the dog went on to other endeavors. As higher scores led to higher puppy/dog prices it became an enhancement to the dog trainers/breeders buisness.

The basic training for most dogs has some basis in some type of dog sport. Anybody that tells you different isn't tellingthe truth, or doesn't know the truth. The foundation is the same. Basic sport training also provides a solid foundation that can be started when the dog is younger. Most good SchH work will also move to some civil work to enhance the dogs work.

People that explain to you that all SchH dogs are just sleeve happy prey monsters isn't dealing with reality, or is just trying to sell you their services.

I just want to thank everyone for giving me a clearer picture. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />