Laura Sanborn said:

 Quote:

F1 hybrids (first generation cross breeds) are more uniform than the subsequent few generations of back crosses.

This is true, I did not say that the third and fourth generations would be more uniform than the first! But I have seen many cross bred litters that were not very uniform. Some are, some are not. But eventually, when choosing for characteristics that you want in your breed you are going to get more uniformity. Look at the link to that "doodle research center" in Australia. They are not breeding two different breeds, or their F-1 offspring, they are breeding purebred doodles. They are adding a few poodles in now though.


Laura Sanborn said:

 Quote:

The breeding of F1 hybrid working guide dogs has become increasingly common. The F1 hybrids are not bred, they go to working homes.

Great. I do also believe that I said right at the beginning that I was giving no consideration to working dogs. Speaking strictly of pets.


Laura Sanborn said:

 Quote:

F1 hybrids also have more "hybrid vigor".

Maybe, but this is not guaranteed. If breeding healthy to healthy, yes. Most people breeding for pets breed their dog to their neighbors dog with no regard to health clearances. A GOOD breeder of purebred dogs is very strict with health clearances. I'm not saying that some breeders who mix breeds are not responsible, but these are most likely going to be those who are breeding for a purpose. Not those who breed their lab to a poodle so they can sell their pups for $1500 when pure labs only fetch $150.


Laura Sanborn said:

 Quote:

I find it interesting that some apparently think it's OK for breeders to intentionally breed and sell pure breed dogs for the pet market but it's not OK to intentionally breed and sell mixed breed dogs for the pet market.

I'm of the belief that at this time there are enough pets produced out of working or show breedings along with more than enough dogs in the shelters to supply the pet market. Why should someone breed solely for pets??? Aren't our shelters and rescues full enough?

Laura Sanborn says:

 Quote:

Yet we expect those who want a good companion dog to settle for mystery dogs from the shelter, or else take the rejects from other breeding programs or BYB pure breeds.

OK, I take issue with this too. Just because a dog may not be suitable for a working or show home does not make it a "reject." Most pet homes would not want a highly driven working dog. They don't have the time or desire to put into the dog what he needs. Conversely a working home does not want the laid back pup who really doesn't care too much about that ball or the funny looking man with the padded arm waving that stick. This pup is NOT a reject, he is a pet.

Same with the show dogs. Maybe the dog has innapropriate coloring, is missing a tooth, perhaps testicles didn't descend, or any other disqualifying falt. This dog is not a show dog, but is definitely NOT a reject. He is a pet.

Elisabeth's last statement is so on target that I can't add anything more!

Yet we expect those who want a good companion dog to settle for mystery dogs from the shelter, or else take the rejects from other breeding programs or BYB pure breeds. Laura this was a snide comment and you obviously misunderstood some of us. Many pet quality dogs from good breeders are not rejects that's a harsh word to use. And if someone gets a dog from the shelter it is NOT settling. Some of the best pets I have owned have been shelter mutts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . If people were more educated puppy millers and seedy breeders wouldn't exist, but Rome was not built in a day and I don't expect we could educate a country in a year.

I said: "F1 hybrids also have more "hybrid vigor"."

 Quote:

Originally posted by Elisabeth Barber:
Maybe, but this is not guaranteed.

Of course it's not guaranteed. Nothing that complex genetically can be guaranteed. Two OFA Excellent parents can still produce dysplastics, for example. Odds are they won't, but it can happen.

It's about odds. Studies have confirmed, as one would predict, that odds are mixed breed dogs are healthier ON AVERAGE and live longer than pure breed dogs do ON AVERAGE. It's because of hybrid vigor.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Elisabeth Barber:
A GOOD breeder of purebred dogs is very strict with health clearances.

Then darn few of them are GOOD breeders. Ever seen the stats for the percentage of various pure breeds that are OFA'd? It's about 5% for GSDs. A very small percentage of GSDs bred in America are OFA'd.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Elisabeth Barber:
I'm not saying that some breeders who mix breeds are not responsible, but these are most likely going to be those who are breeding for a purpose.

Breeding for pets is breeding for a purpose. Some will do it carelessly, or for the wrong reasons. Some will do it with care, and produce good companion dogs.

I said: "I find it interesting that some apparently think it's OK for breeders to intentionally breed and sell pure breed dogs for the pet market but it's not OK to intentionally breed and sell mixed breed dogs for the pet market."

 Quote:

Originally posted by Elisabeth Barber: I'm of the belief that at this time there are enough pets produced out of working or show breedings along with more than enough dogs in the shelters to supply the pet market. Why should someone breed solely for pets??? Aren't our shelters and rescues full enough?

IMO, companion dog owners deserve a healthy sound dog just as much as working dog owners do. If someone wants to obtain a dog from a shelter or rescue... great! More power to 'em. I've done both, and will likely do it again. But I know the odds are worse than if I get a pup from a careful breeding program.

If one wants a healthy pup with sound temperament, one is more likely to get it if one can assess the temperament of both parents, and confirm they have health clearances. These things usually aren't possible with shelter or rescue pups. With many shelter pups, one often has no idea even what sort of breeds went into them, therefore little idea what they will be like when grown. The "spaniel mix" pup I got from the SPCA many years ago grew up to have a lot of border collie energy, looks, and even "eye". Who'd have known?

IMO a "pet quality" dog out of show dog breeding is likely to be excessively inbred, and therefore much more likely to be unsound than most other breedings. Also, at least from what I've seen, temperament and health are so far down the list of many show dog breeders' priorities that in many cases I wouldn't take one of their pups if they gave it to me. Lastly, breeding dogs for the purpose of winning beauty pageant shows is not something I will support by giving a breeder who does so any my money.

IMO a "pet quality" dog out of working dog breeding program will often be too much dog for most companion dog owners. You just can't reliably tell at 8 weeks what a dog's drive and temperament will be when they grow up, so assessing them as "pet quality" at that age is iffy. Wanna example? My husband's GSD tied for the high protection score at the recent USA North American SchH3 Championship. This is a strong, high drive dog. "He's a monster!" is what the front half helper said as he left the field at the NAs after working this dog. Yet this dog was the "pet quality" pup out of a working litter. He was deemed at 8 weeks to be "too mellow" to do schutzhund. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I just love this dog, and wouldn't trade him for anything. But in many companion dog homes, he wouldn't have made it past puberty without being dumped in a shelter.

Laura Sanborn

 Quote:

Originally posted by Antoinette Messina:
Laura this was a snide comment and you obviously misunderstood some of us.

Relax. The comments weren't aimed at you, or anyone in particular.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Antoinette Messina:
Many pet quality dogs from good breeders are not "rejects" that's a harsh word to use.

So are you saying these sorts of things don't happen?
Weak nerves --> pet home
Health problem --> pet home
Bad structure --> pet home
Bad movement --> pet home
Etc.

Laura Sanborn

I am closing this thread - there is a limit to how interesting a labraDOODLE really is and I think 45 posts just about covers everything that could ever be said about a cross between a labroador and a poodle.