You know Mike...I can't say that I disagree with a lot of your statements...I DO believe that sports today are more a test of training. AND some of training AND competitive handling than of the dogs themselves...But I would also add that ASR is also a test of training...Man that program is HARDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!! The dogs don't get there by themselves...and if you don't have the handlers/trainers/decoys...Your dog is going to do SQUAT regardless of his 'inner substance'...Sorry but you (generic)can't have one without the other...They are CONNECTED. That's why I've always emphasized to people NOT to judge a dog by the program they are in...Just because a dog does ScH or Ring...doesn't mean he doesn't have the 'character' to do well in other programs...Man some of us do what is accessible to us...IOW, it's the only 'game' in town lol...Don't judge a book by its cover...

In ASR--and correct me guys (Jay, Scott, Chris); there are NO extra points for demonstrating 'defense'...A dog that is intense and extreme in prey and considered 'decoy hard'...can finish to ASR III?? I had one of those many years ago...he had been hurt numerous times while engaged with a decoy back in France...but the boy just kept coming back! He was what I would consider a GREAT SPORT dog...he NEVER quit and kept bouncing back no matter what...But he wouldn't bite for real (ie., break in, or to defend during a real assault) if his life depended on it...He wouldn't have hurt a mouse...This dog sought out tranquility and peace in his every day life and was the LAST dog to look or welcome real conflict...But put that suit on and the dog was a POWERHOUSE! He was also social with people and other dogs (males and females). But man he dropped one decoy after another and took his 'hits'...Many of them hard and unfair...It never affected nor phazed him...

What I'm saying is that ALL sports have 'limitations' within their own 'structure'...because they are standardized and must be FAIR to each and every competitor...None of them, including ASR are 'street brawls' where anything goes...So you will NEVER get a 'true measure' or a 100% accurate assessment of any dog's true 'worth'.

There are MANY more questions about using an untitled dog for a stud than there are if he has just for an example: FR III, or BR I, or AD, FH2, and a Sch/IPO III...

The measure of a dog's trainability and motivation is GENETIC and sports will and DO demonstrate this. The measure of a dog's control and self restraint is not only about how good training it's had...but also gives 'light' to it's genetics...One can take two dogs (same breed) and train them, raise them the SAME way in any given sport....and I can guarantee you that the final results WILL differ...Why?...Genetics.

There are 'results' that one will NEVER see in ANY sport...Unless they allow for kicking the dog, hurting the dog physically...just to demonstrate the dog's 'worth'....Such a sport doesn't exist. But I will agree that some sports test a dog more than others...But then to be the 'devil's advocate'; let's take ScH...How do YOU know that a particular ScH III dog is not also a result of suitwork, hidden sleeve, muzzle work, civilian work?

To eliminate a dog based simply on the basis of a program (weak or whatever)is 'silly' (generic). This is a sure way of eliminating potentially incredible contributors to the genepool IMO.

There are complete 'sport' dogs which will 'pass' any sport/program out there today...KNPV, ASR, FR, MR, BR, PSA, ScH etc...There is no 'foolproof' method. I think one needs to look at the DOG...and not be limited by the program it's titled in.

I have done Ringsport for a dozen years...and now I'm doing ScH...but I'll tell you my dog WILL and does do suitwork, hidden sleeve and will be starting muzzle work...He also doesn't need ANY equipment to 'light up'...He 'watches' people and their actions...Yet he's fine with people and canines...But he will be titled in ScH. He's a 'bit much' for ScH as it is now IMO, but with the supplemental training...he's getting his 'fix'. Those are limitations of the specific program...certainly NOT the dog. His entire pedigree is filled with BR and FR and one particular KNPV dog...He'll be the first to add ScH to the list...He also has his first litter on the ground in the US and 75% of them are going into ASR...The pups are assessing incredibly...So please don't judge a dog by its program. Judge a dog on its own merits.

All this said...I agree with you...in general...ScH as a program needs to raise the level of assessment (for the dog). Because I see its limitations...I AM 'testing' and assessing my dog's 'worth' through other means...

B