Even experienced dogs will tend to take what is moving. Combine that with a lack of opportunity at another target and you can train/see bites in other areas.

Jerry is making the best point though. Dogs will develop habits. The result in training comes from the dog being trained often with a sleeve only and the result is that the dog is corrected for making the bite in an unprotected area. The result is that the dog is often trained to only bite the arm. Over comming training is much more difficult than to train it from the begining.

Some dogs also seem to have an almost genetic predisposition to make bites in a particular area. I have seen several dogs that like leg bites from the begining, and others that much prefer the arm bite.

I have never understood the idea of a "back" bite. First there is no real biting surface. The result is that the dog is biting clothes only, not much control there. Second, I would be concerned about the dog going for the only biting surface they can get their mouth around in that area... the neck. I have never seen a case where there wasn't a better target available than the "back".

Hey Dennis, what does a muzzle have to do with this. Target location is a target location. If the dog was upper body,where do you think woof woof will target with the muzzle on.

Sorry, but your looking to try and re-invent the wheel here or at the very least find a new place on the field (somewhere). Psd units need the dogs out working and not in a confused state between training changes in format.

JMO for what it is worth.

Jerry <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you think this is a ‘new’ invention sorry its not.

I can’t believe you are asking how the muzzle will fit into this given your remarks and obvious distain for training methods that vary from your own.

You should know how and why.

Dennis,

While you state that a full bite is not needed, but is a show of confidence, then how is it you can train grip but not train confidence? If you are saying it's possible for a dog to have great confidence but not bite full, then we are in agreement. I just can not believe that because a dog has a full mouth bite they are a confident dog.

I also believe that if a dog has a natural fight driven bite, and engages, and is in control and outs clean on the street why would I ever go back and make the dog learn a full mouth bite?

If the issue is liability, there again, I don't see how you are correct. Most full bites are prey driven, thus the head thrashing is involved. If it is defensive, the pulling semi-avoidance reaction may take place. The thrashing and pulling action even in a well balanced dog will produce the damage you so want to avoid. Again, I'm NOT saying this does not happen with fight driven dogs as most will try these behaviors when defeating an foe. The damage done by a 1/2 to 3/4 grip is the same a fullmouth bite unless it is on a smaller part of the body that would normally tear regardless. Unless it's wonder dog, or just a fluke, the dog is going to remain on what he has bit. They are not going to pull a person apart because they have less than a full mouth bite. As you will be sued regardless on how the dog bit, or why in many cases, the practice and belief that by teaching a full mouth bite you will reduce liability is ridiculous. It is comments such as this that get depts in trouble. Someone goes out and makes a statement that "full bites" are the safest lowest manner of force dogs can use" gets us all in hot water. It's a irresponsible thought to believe that spouting this will bolster your ideas. However, I'm sure there is a lawyer reading this (probably in Los Angeles County) who would love to hire you for his next lawsuit against a K-9 bite in CA.

Have you read Donn Yarnall's "Bark and Hold?"

http://www.donnyarnall.com/Find%20&%20Bark.htm

In this you may see what I mean by many fight driven dogs having less than full mouth bites and the reasons why. You may also see another point of view than my own speaking about the same subject.

To go back to the original topic. Speaking for our training and many dogs I've worked, being locked on a target is normally the fault of the decoy or the trainer. Many dogs will become target fixated if WE let them. However, the majority of dogs I have worked that had the correct drives and ability switched targets fairly readily if shown the targets correctly. If the dog will engage as trained, the target should not matter. This is not to say the dog will not have a favorite target should it be available.

I normally find if the dog is properly selected and trained, you can get them to engage "other" targets by eliminating the habituated target. Using heights to remove upper body bites, or even very tight bathroom stalls where only leg bites are available work well. You may need to have the dog on line in the bathroom so he doesn't squirm under the divider and come up for a high bite.

Also, many times when doing line agitation and dogs bite low (if you are working on bringing them down) you have the problem of them releasing and going back up. Most decoys(if not all of us) use our arms to balance. When a dog bites the leg, it's very difficult for the decoy not to bring their arm in. If the dog can se the arms, they will go up and take it. This is why we remove the upper body bite with more realistic scenario type bite and not go back to line agitation.

Josh, I have tried to keep away from the debate for the general interests of all law enforcement.

Lawyers reading I am not for hire.

Dennis,

---While you state that a full bite is not needed, but is a show of confidence, then how is it you can train grip but not train confidence? ---- I made that statement to allow the fact there are god dogs working who don’t hit full yet are capable units.

----If you are saying it's possible for a dog to have great confidence but not bite full, then we are in agreement. I just cannot believe that because a dog has a full mouth bite they are a confident dog. --- We are in agreement in part. While the dog bite full in prey and his ability to do it as he approaches for the bite defense plays apart and his confidence to engage fully is checked. This is well known.

The moment he hits the bite if he is a god dog he sill be in fight drive if he is more or less wanting in confidence it will show up in the bite.

----I also believe that if a dog has a natural fight driven bite, and engages, and is in control and outs clean on the street why would I ever go back and make the dog learn a full mouth bite?----

I agree you might not want to. The original post asked about getting the dog to hit other area not teach him a how to bite full not that he is conditioned. It is possible to teach him to bite full but it would be trainer and handler choice.

---- If the issue is liability, there again, I don't see how you are correct. Most full bites are prey driven, thus the head thrashing is involved. If it is defensive, the pulling semi-avoidance reaction may take place. The thrashing and pulling action even in a well-balanced dog will produce the damage you so want to avoid.---

Well it is not an issue of complete liability it is one of general practice of training and that is about it. As you defend your position I think it hurts it just as much. If you have good dogs that don’t bite full why make an issue about it.

Many people label a dog that hits like a hammer in drive and say it is fight drive. I agree fight drive is what we want but I disagree every dog that bites hard works in fight drive. It is easy to say well this dog or that dog is in fight or not so unless we have an example in front of us one cannot tell scripting in chit chat.

When I think of fight drive I can’t without addressing what I think about hectic (nervy) but serious vs. calm and serious. Both will produce a hard hit and will take it to the target. Yet there does exist a difference. Debates like these are helpful because it forces thought about “heady” concepts.

Once again I am not against dogs that get the job done it seems more you are against dogs who bite full and trainers who would like to keep them biting full. I really don’t understand it because it does not hurt my position about effectiveness.

I think you would be hard pressed to say dogs that have learned to bite full and later go on to hidden and bite suit work coupled with muzzle agitation cannot be an outstanding K9. The correctly applied muzzle work (where the dog is not muzzle smart and has strong enough drives to do the work) can bring a level of realism and enhance the dog’s commitment to his fight.

If he has never had anything but full bites up to the point you start adding defense work and fight drive building getting him to target other places is easy… easy… easy.

He won’t fall off to “arm sure” practices if you have done enough to convince the dog he can bite and win in other places. If he does resort to it you either have not done enough to train away in a convincing threat situation. (i.e. muzzle work as real as possible) or the dog is simply weaker then you think.

The fact is you made the full bite an issue not me yet what I have posted is correct.

Dennis, where does a muzzle fit into this thread. Are we talking about two different topics here. I thought this was about switching a dog trained to bite the arms and trying to switch this dog to do lower body etc.

As far as training methods go, you have no clue about my methods. Which by the way are not outside the box within the groups I work with. They are tried and true and tested by time,worldwide. Last if you think by reading my web site and that will tell you my methods or even what we are about here in our buisiness again your barking the wrong howl.

I will ask you again. Where does the muzzle fit into your reasoning of changing a dog from a formed and imprinted bite location?

You dodged Josh earlier and now your doing the same with me.

My analogy of the location switch for the bite was a top notch Sch III dog to Ringsport Training.

Please explain how using a muzzle will speed up this process, let alone play a role be it. Be that for Sport of PSD work.



Jerry

I have not dodged anything. You asked questions and I gave you solid answers (time and true answers) like them or not they hold up. Please without slants or any other BS step up and explain if you have an answer lets here you solutions…none have been rang forward with anything but “accolades of the hopeful.”

What I do see here is a couple of guys working to retain clients. Pass you tripe to a guy who eats it. If you have some points make them but you better have better reasons then because “I said so and I have a website to prove it.”

I have not nailed you to a wall though I see your nails flying well past me. Not sure why nor do I really care.

The correctly applied muzzle work (where the dog is not muzzle smart and has strong enough drives to do the work) can bring a level of realism and enhance the dog’s commitment to his fight. It is also effective in teaching to target other parts of the body.

How can you not know this?

Moving to Ontario with winter home in CT…
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Originally posted by david morris:
Some of the police dogs I work with are arm oeiented,not sleeve oreiented but arm oriented.Ive done things like when they send them for the bite Ill have a blanket wrapped around my upper body so they cant see my arms or get to them.Some of the dogs will keep circling trying to to find an arm.
I have sleeves and a bite suit, I was interested in hearing some great ways to get them to target my back or legs with out even thinking twice about arms.I was thinking of back tieing the dogs and frustating them into leg bites.Im sure there are other ways too. All sugestions will be apreciated. The answer to your question has a lot of variables to consider.
It would take an evaluation of the dog & the training it has undergone to determin why it does this and what the correct prescription would be to repair.
The proper police dog should be comfortable with engaging the body anywhere although a preference either trained (purposely or accidentally) or of the dogs individual prefernce is not problematic.
Whether the dog will do this does NOT, I REPEAT NOT, matter what type of equipment is used. Although in repair of such a problem certain equipment choices might prevail. For example, I often use a sleeve with the KNPV & Ring dogs who are really into the material, and a suit or muzzle with the IPO or schh dogs that are really into the sleeve. Hidden sleeves are only a diagnostic tool and testing tool not a working piece of equipment.
Focus and refocus are the keys to getting the dog to react as a police dog should. Decoy work must revolve around the dog's ability to focus on the man and refocus when there is no equipment in the dog's mouth. Note: carrying equipment is NOT a problem in training police dogs, only in police dog trainers and handlers minds, but that said the dog must refocus on the decoy when my equipment is out of his his and he had better let loose of that equipment the moment I tell him to.
As to grip. Grip is a combination of training and genetics. It can be trained in many genetic types although a few cannot manage the requisite 3/4 grip and up. I question the fight drive of those not capable, under correct training, of producing 3/4 and better grips most of the time. Extreme pressure and training that uses fight or flight behaviors will wreck an other wise nice dog and it will be seen in measely mouthed nervous, and often ferociously hard grips. This can also happen in a street altercation as a result of a combatant that produces this in a PSD. Too bad for the non-compliant, combative and violent bad guy. Any apprehension technique will hurt this person as a result of their behavior.
The full grip is an advantageous to the police dog as it provides good pain compliance with the least amount of damage under the conditions that the tool is working. As we all know not all techniques work all the time, we loose out grip on bad guys too, and some things just don't work well on other people. The expereinced police dog (coupled with good training and selection) will often find a location that does provide the pain compliance, when found he'll stay there.
How do you train it? This format doesn't allow for the intricacies of such training methodologies.
To JL, get a sleeve and learn to use it. To JC, muzzles help and can even help the grip, to DH, what are you talking about, what legal controversy is there when it comes to grip?
Lawyers out there.....I am for hire....sometimes.... and only in the support of law enforcement.

Dennis writes:What I do see here is a couple of guys working to retain clients. Pass you tripe to a guy who eats it. If you have some points make them but you better have better reasons then because “I said so and I have a website to prove it.”

It has nothing to do with retaining or gaining clients. My accomplishments and dogs across this country do that for me. You on the other hand have shown us what? When challenged on your Sch club, you didn't have a solid reply to the poster that "attacked" you or your ability to train Sch. You in fact didn't even have a titled dog I recall, yet want to be the training director for the club...

I'll be happy to put my references and past few years of PSD history up here for all to see...what about you..oh wait, you helped fix 3 dogs and got them to pass the minimum standards set for them to certify...great...

I went not after YOU but after your ideas as YOU WROTE them. You then made it personal , fine no problem...I'm a big boy and can/will deal with it.
I have a website..woo hoo...I would think most people who do some form of dog training as you do for a living would as well...where is yours? Ed has one..you're on it..Kevin has one..must make him a crappy trainer too...Donn Yarnall has one..lets cancel anything he's ever done in PSDs...While I don't need another website to "back up" my ideology, I don't see you you even come close to ANYTHING Donn Yarnall has even written let alone trained or done. Perhaps you should look at his site and get a few ideas about whom you speak.

So here it is..PUT UP! Lets see it, references..I'll show you mine...resume..I'll show you mine...seminars you've taught...can list mine for ya..results of you PSDs..right here..want em'? If not, go back into the corn fields and pretend you are even close to the trainer you believe you are. Tell the folks here who have gone to Nationals how you can do what they do, but never titled a dog. Perhaps you can start breeding dogs now and tell Ed how little he knows about GSDs....

Ed, Van, Deanna..anyone else...want to delete this...no problem, close the thread..cool...I'd be happy to have the subject go back to re-targeting and help the person who first posed the question....geee ya know for free even...as I always just try to share ideas and help folks train and solve problems by passin "tripe" around to the folks who are hungry...puts sooo much money in my pocket I can actually retire..perhaps to some nice hut in the cornfields of say Iowa.

Well,
I guess I'll close it now that it got personal.