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I received two male puppies from the same litter at 16 weeks. They are ~3/4 Lab and 1/4 Chow. They are now at 21 weeks. I have 5 acres mostly surrounded by brush. For about the last two months I kept them in a 10' by 20' wire mesh kennel with their separate 2 1/2' by 4' dog houses. I created the kennel to protect them at night. They were let out usually around 9AM with my wife, 3 & 4 year old sons home with them about 80 to 100% of the time they were out. The weekends were not much different except I'm at home as well. They would spend most of their time visibly in and around the house but with 5 acres it was not unusual to not see them then find them under the deck for shade, or exploring within the property. They were put back in their kennel at dusk. More and more recently, the puppies have taken to going to the near neighbor's and barking at or tormenting their dogs. Three adult dogs about their size at one neighbor and three large German Shepards that are fortunately behind a new chain link fence at the other neighbor's. If they bothered the neighbor's dogs I would put them back in the kennel for at least 2 hours or for the rest of the night if it was after 3PM. In trying to teach them the property boundaries I have tried to walk them together and separately around the property saying "No" and pulling back on the body harness when they would go beyond the flagged boundary. Unfortunately, even with my wife, walking two puppies and 3 & 4 year old boys does not work. If I tried to walk them separately, their attention was 90% with the sight or sound location of the other pup, so that did not work either. I learned of the problems of trying to raise litter mates and suspect it may be part of the attention problem I'm having in training them. This last Saturday, I created a similar second kennel about 80' away out of sight of the first one and moved a dog house to it. I tried to walk the boundary on Sunday with the Alpha who had previously refused to walk on a leash. This time I received about 80% cooperation and gave lots of approval and a beef treat for. On the other hand, the other pup who would walk on the leash the previous day now only went a fraction of the way and I ended up carrying him back to the kennel with no anger or reprimand and spend some time there combing his fur. Since I separated them I have advised my wife not to let them both free at the same time. It is usually when they are together they leave the property although the Alpha may be the initiator of that. I have also installed a containment fence w/collars and an electric shock fence beyond that. Although functioning the containment collars have not worked which may be a combination of being too weak and not enough training. The shock fence was about a one day deterrent which they have now found a way to bypass. I only completed the containment fence a week ago and I'm hoping that with a stronger collar and more training it may make a difference. The shock fence was put up on Saturday.
I would assume that this type of problem is not new. Do you have a training method, regime or advise that can be useful in teaching them not to cross the property boundary? If not, do you know a source?
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I suggest that you make some changes.
I would read what I have written on my web site about trying to raise 2 dogs at one time.
Either find a home for one of these dogs, or set up separate kennels and keep them separated all the time. You are risking your children here.
Obedience train these dogs. Having to carry a 5 1/2 month old pup isn't the right thing to be doing. If you would like to learn more about the principles of obedience training a dog, read the description for my Basic Dog Obedience video.
You will probably find that you have not had the full picture on the steps of training a dog must go through before it can be considered fully trained. You can also read why I am not a fan of taking an untrained dog to obedience classes. I think if you read the testimonials on that tape you will see that my customers feel the same way. Get this tape and a prong collar and start training before you have serious problems.
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I have a question. I have two puppies and raising the both of them is too much. They have been together for about 3 months. I want to sell one and I am wondering will the other puppy I keep be lonely and sad that the other one is gone. The only reason why I would keep both is so that they could keep each other company when I am at work. Any thoughts?
Sabine
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Dogs live in the moment. Find a good home for one puppy and spend quality time with the other and the second dog will be fine. |
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My daughter has 3 Chow/Pit mix dogs, age 1 year. 1 male and 2 female, all from the same litter. One of the females is not fixed.She also has a Shepherd mix female 3 years old who is fixed. The Shepherd and the female not fixed lived together at my home for seven months. The fixed male and fixed female lived at a neighbors home for the same time. The four have been brought together for about 4 weeks now.They have been brought up in a loving way since birth and they live in a huge backyard now. All was going well until a week ago. My daughter walked outside not knowing there had been a fight between the fixed male and the female Chow that was not fixed. She did not know she was in heat.My daughter's concerns are after the female has healed, and after she has her fixed, will it be safe to put them together again. Also did her being in heat cause the fight? Both dogs involved in the fight are normally very loving and get along. Who was the aggressor? There were no marks on the male, only blood on his face and leg as if it was rubbed off from the female.She, on the other hand, had multiple bite wounds on the front right leg and right ear. Thank you for your help and advice.
Sincerely,
Joyce
Sabine
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This fight may or may not have had something to do with the dog being in heat. The fact is it happened as a result of rank issues within your dog pack.
Once dogs fight like these they can not and should not be pt together again. It is only a matter of time before something else trggers a fight.
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I called today and spoke with a nice woman who gave me some advice about a problem I’m having with my dogs, and she suggested I email the story to you. Like many other people, I believed that it was not only ok, but it was a good idea to get to puppies from the same litter and raise them because ‘they could take care of each other’. Well, I think I’ve learned that was not exactly the smartest thing to do.
Last summer, my wife and I were looking for a GSD puppy and went to a kennel and they had two males from the same litter. My wife and I discussed it and decided we’d decided to get both puppies and just raise them together. This worked out fairly well at first and they were pretty ‘typical’ puppies...playing together, fighting a little with each other, friendly, cute. We had the potty trained quickly and began taking them to ‘dog training’ classes.
Everything was going along well until one day during class we noticed that one of our dogs began to be a bit uncontrollable and barked at every dog in the room. We figure it was ‘just a teenager making noise’ and he would grow out of it. Then, a few months later, the other male started doing it. Then, the fights began getting just a bit more heated. Now, during this time, I would take them to work with me as I have my own office. I share the office with a friend who has two mix dogs (one female and one male). It took a few weeks, but all four dogs became friendly towards each other and generally, life was good. Then, my male took over.
Sort of ‘overnight’ he began dominating the other dogs. The barking got louder and at one point a bit vicious. My wife was in the office and our male was sitting on the couch with her and my friend’s male just walked in my office and my male basically roared at him...literally jumped off the couch and got nose to nose with him and really barked loudly. That was enough for my friend, who now has his dogs separated from mine in his own office.
I talked with my wife and we decided to neuter both our males for general safety, but also hoping to reduce the aggression and hyperness. I have no idea if this is going to solve anything. Now, my dominant male is growling at our other male and I am finding that I have to ‘separate’ them at home and scold him for growling. I think maybe we failed our dogs.
I’m not sure what to do, but we never intended to raise aggressive ‘protection’ type animals. We wanted friendly, smart, strong dogs and up to a point, absolutely have just that. But I didn’t count on the aggressive, dominant behavior. If we have kids, I’m just a bit worried about having our dogs in our house around a baby and I’m also a bit cautious about having friends bring over their kids in case our dominant male decides he doesn’t like what the other one is doing while one of the kids is playing with them. Could you please help us by recommending something we could do?
We’ve thought about sending them both to a ‘boarding training school’ to help train and help us to control them better. We’ve talked about removing one of them to a GSD rescue location, or even removing them both to a great home and simply starting over. We’ve invested lots of time and money into them and they really are great animals. But I am having trouble with the behavior and need help. We realized, a bit too late, that we should have controlled them much better and no longer let them on the couch and make them sit and lie down for everything including going outside. But I don’t know if we are too far along with them to change their behavior.
Thanks in advance, for any advice you could offer.
Lew
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If you read my web site you will see that I tell people not to try and raise 2 pups at the same time. It seldom works.
Sending these dogs away for training is also not agood solution.This only teaches the dogs to mind the trainer. They always revert back to their old ways after they come home.
Find a home for one of them and train the other.
There is no magic bullet her to fix this problem.. You either get two dog crates and keep them separated, or find a home for one. The people you train with may be well intended but they lack experience.. |
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Dear Mr. Frawley.
Please can you help ? We have two JR 6mth old brothers who apart from the occasional scrap where they had to be separated have always slept and eaten together and have been good together. Last Saturday however after being on my lap together and playing together they suddenly flipped.
They growl at each other and if they were allowed would definitely have a bad fight. On Tuesday morning I had them both neutered, but they still can't stand one another. They still go for walks on the lead together in a controlled situation and are ok being next to each other. What can I do? The dogs belong to my two sons and how can I get rid of one?
Veronica
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Your options are:
1- Bite the bullet and find a new home for one of these dogs
2- Get two dog crates and keep these dogs separated.Training dogs not to fight seldom works. It can be done but usually only by pro and even then there is littgle to no room for error.
3- Train your dogs - get my 4 hour DVD Basic Dog Obedience - with two JR you will need a solid training plan. They are cool little dogs but they can be head strong.
Read the article I wrote titled DEALING WITH A DOMINANT DOG.
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I’ve already smacked myself on the head for getting two pups at the same time so you don’t have to do that for me.
We have two 9 m/o golden retriever littermates, one of each sex. We’ve had them since they were 8 weeks old. The female, Chena, is the dominant. They are housebroken (ring a bell to go out), sit, stay, and we’re working on come when off leash. Occasionally they will be playing with the same toy and fight. I think Chena starts it most often. If I bang on the table or give a sharp “Stop that!”, they will break off and shake their little heads.
This morning I gave each of them a bone. Chena had hers but when I gave Kenai his she wanted that one too. When he tried to get it back she launched into him. She was pretty fierce.
I train them separately, take them for walks both together and alone, have them out in the yard with me together and alone, etc. We have tons of other dogs in the neighborhood so they get a lot of interaction with other dogs. They are very sweet dogs with humans (working on the sitting quietly when meeting people) and for the most part of a joy to have around.
I’m wondering if the fighting could escalate and what steps I can take to prevent that. I love having the two dogs and would hate to have to separate them. They are both altered and other than this occasional spat (maybe 2-3 a month) get along great and pine when the other isn’t in view.
Thank you in advance for your assistance.
Sue
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The odds are these fights will escalate with age.
The solution is better training, and changing the way you live with your dogs.
You need two dog crates for the house or two dog kennels outside. I would only have one dog loose at a time and I would train them when they are separated.
If these were my dogs I would run them both through my Basic Dog Obedience program. I would be using a prong collar or an electric collar (for proofing) in your training.
We have a very good training DVD on Remote Collar Training for the Pet Owner.
Read the article I wrote on my web site about DOG PARKS. We don't take our dogs to dog parks. It is a dangerous thing to do.
You may want to read the article I wrote on how to breakup a dog fight without getting hurt. |
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Hello.. I am writing this after reading your website, and I hope you can help me.
I own an six month old Labrador (male, shortly to be neutered). He is a very good natured, easy going dog, who is obedient, well trained and used to socializing with other dogs both in the home, and on 'neutral ground'.
Largely for the dog's benefit, after seeing how bored and lonely our last dog was (he was an only dog), we have recently offered to rehome a four month old Cocker Spaniel puppy, who is also male and will be neutered when he can be. The idea of this is to provide both dogs with companionship when we are out of the house, as well as giving them a friend each (our cat doesn't play proper puppy games although he tries his best!). As dogs are a pack animal, we thought it would be beneficial to them to have the company of their own species, as well as human company.
We are experienced dog owners, we have had dogs all our lives, but have not yet had to introduce two similarly aged dogs together.
I was wondering if, in my situation, you would still recommend the cage method to introduce the dogs to one another (both dogs currently sleep in their cages and are left in them when we are out of the house, so they are both comfortable in this situation). We were hoping to introduce the dogs on neutral ground, on their leashes, and allow them to see each other out and about out of the house before living together.
If you have any advice I would be more than grateful to receive it.
Thanks again, and yours sincerely..
Louise.
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I follow your thinking and your logic. But unless you use dog crates and keep these dogs separated until they are fully trained this is not going to work.
If you want to get a second dog, get a female and do the same protocol.
You are correct that dogs are pack animals but you need to remember that dog packs have rank issues. which ften lead to dog fights. |
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Hi, I'm writing you because I do not believe what you stated about having 2 puppies in the same home. I raised 4 Staffordshire in the same home. They all eat together, play together and left unattended together. If the owners knows how to trian them then usually it's okay. Yes I believe in packs but I do not believe it is wrong or a bad idea to raise more then one in the same home. Thanks for reading my proof and opinion.
From: Ian & Courtney
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It's my opinion that you have been very lucky. You may want to take a look at the web page I have of dog bites. Many or most of these photos have come from people who break up dog fights. |
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Hi.
I used google to do some research on my two pups new habit of fighting and found your site. I appreciated your straight-forward style and insistence on pointing out owner/handler faults -- and solutions.
I had to have my 15 year old yorkie put to sleep after she was not able to have quality of life any longer. We adored our little pet and decided to get two more after she died.
The litter mates, both females, are loving little pups. They spent each moment together until about the age of 5-6 months, when they began fighting rather aggressively. We talked with our vet and our dog trainer (they were enrolled in "puppy school" to learn the basics....) who both explained that they were adolescing...and that having them spayed would likely solve the problem.
Well, we are almost one month post-surgery -- and though the "fights" seem less severe, they still take place. We must keep them completely separate from one another -- and want to try to integrate them again...so are looking for expert advice on how to do this, why it happens, etc.
Can you provide any explanation or insight? Can you make any suggestions as to how to remedy this situation. They are truly our pets - and we like to have them have free reign of the house when we are all home....which is our goal. While we are gone, they each have their own crate (as we learned that this was the best way to train the dogs...).
I look forward to hearing from you.
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Read the article on WHY ITS A BAD IDEA TO TRAY AND RAISE TWO PUPS AT THE SAME TIME
Read the Q&A section on Inter Female Aggression (I have not had time to write answers to these yet
I am sorry to tell you this but you should make some changes.
Your problems just started and neutering is not going to help them. I often have to remind people that Vets are health care providerfs and not dog trainers - although many think of themselves as trainers (they are not)
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My advise is find a home for one of these dogs. If you don’t want to do this use dog crates and keep them separated. I also recommend reading my article on how to break up a dog fight without getting bit. You can find the list of 300 or so training article I have written. |
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I have two 7 month old shepherd mix puppies that are constantly play fighting they never pay any attention to me and I am afraid their play fights will get to be real fight and the smaller one will get hurt please help me.
Morgan
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Your problems have just begun.
I would separate these dogs and train them separarley. |
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Hi there,
I came across your web-site today...apparently in the 'nick of time'. We have purchased 2 miniature, longhair dachshunds that are about 2 weeks apart in age. The first one is coming home in 2 weeks. Of course, after reading through your web-site, I now realize the serious issues associated with raising 2 dogs. I had NO IDEA and OF COURSE the 2 breeders I'm going through and the three online 'experts' I emailed told me it would be a great idea to buy 2 so I went ahead.
I guess my questions is...'How can do the best for them?' Here is some of what I've gathered:
- Separate kennels/crates
- Individual attention and training
- An 'Obedience' DVD for techniques
Thanks a million,
Lucy
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You are on the right track. If you haven't done it yet, I suggest you read my article on Raising 2 dogs at the same time, and Dealing with a Dominant and Aggressive Dog. My article on the Groundwork to Becoming Pack Leader is also a good place to start.
Good luck.
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We had gotten 2 silky terriers over the weekend after a long search. I read your warnings on multi-pup households and am committed to working on keeping them both.
We home school so that I have the time 24/7 needed to spend on them and my wife and I are committed to that. We immediately bought two crates and leash them ALWAYS when not in the crate. And as soon as I read your warnings we ceased letting them play together unleashed. And are implementing your methods and recommendations as best as we can.
I immediately ordered your Basic Obedience DVD and look forward to it's arrival.
Of course, as you expect, the vet yesterday encouraged us to neuter them de-facto. We are not entirely comfortable with that. It is not just the money but I just cant believe that a dog is so stupid that it can not be trained to control it's behavior. If a Working GSD can be left outside in a "down stay" for 8 hours... then it must be possible. We have no problem with them sleeping separate permanently. As they are a toy breed we do not plan on ever leaving them unsupervised (together or not) unless they are in their own separate crate. We have no problem with them being leashed 100% of time outside the crate.
We are more concern with trained family companions than the temporary discomfort of training. I have even explained to our children that their own roles needs to change. Thank you for your information as it may save us from seeing this as a mistake rather than a blessing to our family.
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I have never seen a working dog that can be put in a down stay for 8 hours.
You did not see this on my web site. |
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Ed, I have a 12 week old maltese that we have had for three weeks and are house training and crate training. We've been pretty successful with the crate training after three weeks and the puppy only whimpers a little bit some of the time when put in the crate. This weekend we are going to get another 9 week old maltese should we allow this new puppy to share the same crate or should we purchase a new crate for the new puppy? Puppy #1 is very attached to me at this point.
Thank you for your time, your website has been very helpful.
Lisa
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The only way this is going to work is to use 2 crates and keep these dogs separated. Bottom line is its not fair to either pup because it hard enough to raise one pup correctly
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Hello,
I have just found your web site and after reviewing a lot of your articles I was impressed.
I have a question on the crate.
We have 2 Mini Schnauzer male 4 month old puppies both brothers. We actually only had one but the people who bred our 1st puppy decided that because of the litter size (9 puppies) he was the last one and they were just going to send him to the pound . So... we took another puppy.
My question is this I do crate train but with both of them I have a larger crate and wanted to know if it was ok for me to have them both in the same crate? It seems to be working so far, however, we've only had number 2 puppy a few days and he has had no potty training. I also would like to know if you have any recommendations on how to train 2 puppies at the same time. I have has lots of luck with 1 but never 2 I am worried a little about the dominance issue. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Melissa
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I recommend that you find a home for one of these pups. If you do keep them you need to use 2 dog crates and keep them separated until they are fully trained.
These DVDs will help you:
YOUR PUPPY 8 WEEKS TO 8 MONTHS
Basic Dog Obedience
Regards,
Ed |
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Ed,
First let me say I love your website and have spent hours listening and reading. Our breeder recommended it to us when we decided to purchase a second puppy.We have two german shepherd puppies, a female 4 1/2 months and a male 3 months. Both from the same breeder. We lost our 8 year old female GSD to cancer and had always wanted two at the same time but figured she was too set in her ways to introduce a new puppy. Fast forward to the present. We bought our female first and she was house trained and knows basic commands very quickly. She did show signs of nervous barking at other dogs( not people, very friendly) when we took her to the vet the first couple of times. We bought the male three weeks ago and he had much calmer temperament. Initially we tried the introduction on the front lawn and she wanted no part of having him around and snapped and barked at him. My mistake but at least i knew what was ahead of us. We started with two crates sleeping side by side and eventually got to the point where they look at each other curiously and even will lick each other through the door if one is passing on it's way out for a walk. However that's not all the time, the female will bark at him if he's in the crate on occasion and that's when i step in and stop her. We are at the point now where one is in the crate at night when we watch tv and the other is out on a leash. When the female is put in the crate she has a very nervous bark and whine initially but stops and calms down, however if he runs up to the crate and gets in her face she will bark where as he won't when he's in the crate. I spend a lot of one on one time with them as i took her to work with me at first and now i take him and she stays home with my daughter( I also have a crate at work). Training is going well with him also and he knows basic commands. When we walk them every day my wife and i stay on opposite sides of the street and they are both pulling towards the middle. The female all the time and the male 1/2. When she tires we get closer and it usually results in her trying to jump on his shoulders or at times actually trying to bite his fur. This has gone on for 2 weeks now and we are at a roadblock. Now he tries to jump on her shoulders and dominate and it usually results in a dogfight and we pull them apart. However if we use treats or toys on the walks to distract each one of them they calm down. We've gotten to the point where at times after walks they will lay down and share a bowl of water and she even throws her ball to him. They will at times fight over the ball though and then it is taken away. They are fed separately and also walked separately to go to the bathroom and know the routines and there is no barking when doing this while the other is crated. My question is are they too young to use a dominant dog collar. After reading your articles and working to be a good pack leader is it time to try and take some drive out of her on these walks. I have tried laying her down on her side, holding the leash so she can't pick her head up and calmly talking to her and petting her for as long as her nervous whining lasted and then she would calm down and when I let her up her full attention was on me and no problem going after him anymore on that walk. This started to calm her down to a point where they could be with each other on these walks but then he started trying to mount her or jump on her shoulders and even bite her and now we are going in circles. One on one with her does accomplish a goal for a little while. He has started barking at other dogs now which he never did. Is he too young for a dominant dog collar. I know it's hard to give you every detail and i have read where you recommend giving up one dog but we've made progress in a short time and i feel with the time and effort and proper advice from you my wife and i can eventually get these two dogs to accept each other.
Thanks,
Joe
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It is time to start to exert more control on these dogs. If I had them I would use a dominant dog collar or a remote collar at low level stimulation.
I would also recommend my Basic Dog obedience DVD and Remote Collar Training for the Pet Owner.
Your doing the right thing in keeping these dogs separated. They should not be allowed together until they fully trained to off leash bedience – with the determining factor being that they will follow obedience commands under distraction in the presence of the other dog.
Kind Regards,
Ed Frawley
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Hello Cindy,
could I please get your opinion about the following?
I am raising 3 GSD puppies (2 males, 1 female now 4.5 months old), 2 from same litter. They have been living and eating together since we got them. They have been eating from 1 big tray without any problems. The female has been biting her brother's ear during rough play (which they do all day) up to a point where his ear got sore and irritated. My vet gave me an ointment and we decided to separate this male and have him live in the house with our 2 adult dogs. We let the 3 pups play together only supervised. This separated male now eats by himself in the house, but does not eat as well alone, I think he eats maybe 30% less. After 3 days now, my wife is getting worried. Do you think we should just stick it out and he will eventually get hungry enough to eat well again? We take his food away if left unattended for a few minutes.
What would you do?
Thanks for your help.
Jens
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I would never keep puppies together like this.
I separate my puppies at 8-9 weeks. The longer they stay together the more “doggy” they become. They will look to each other for all the things you want them to look to you for. They will also form their own pack order, which will lead to more rough play and eventually there will be a fight as they sort out the rank.
You may want to read the articles on our website about raising puppies and why we don’t recommend raising two puppies (or 3) unless you can separate them and work with each one individually. There is a window of opportunity with dogs from 7-16 weeks, where you can imprint them to all kinds of behavior and training. If left with dogs to do as they wish during this time, it’s possible they may always prefer dogs to humans and it makes training much harder.
I would be separating all the puppies and starting the groundwork program with ALL of them. This covers how to feed the dogs as well as how to live with them in a way that will make them well adjusted, balanced family members.
Cindy |
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While searching for training information for my 2 new litter mate pups I came across your site and learned that I had made a bad decision. I know you hear the story time and time again that people think they will get a playmate so that the pups will keep each other company during the day...we had no clue how bad of a decision that was until we saw your site. We have decided now that the best option would be for my girlfriend to take one of the puppies to her house and I will keep one here. So now the question has become "How much time do we allow them to spend together?" Should they only see each other to play once per week for about an hour, should they see each other for about an hour daily, or should it be even less than that? What is your recommendation?
I ordered your 8 weeks to 8 months video and I will be following that for their training. I look forward to getting it in because though I messed up in the beginning...I want to do the rest right.
Thanks,
David
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Whenever I’m raising a puppy, I don’t allow him to “play” with other dogs of any age until he demonstrates to me that he will come to me when he’s called with one command no matter what he’s doing. If he won’t do this, then he’s not ready for off leash interaction with other dogs.
A lot of people don’t want to do this, and that’s fine but you run the risk of setting up your dog to always think other dogs are way more fun that you are. This means that to later train him to leave this scenario you’ll likely need to use a pretty strong correction to get your point across. I’d rather establish a habit in my dog from day one that I’m always the most interesting thing around, so that means lots of repetitions of coming to me without a super high level distraction like a litter mate or other dog.
This could mean my dog is 6 months old before I allow him interaction with other dogs, or it could mean he’s 2 years old…it all really depends on the dog and your skill as a trainer. I also only let my puppy around trained older dogs that I know will basically ignore him at first. You let your pup go with another pup and it’s likely to turn into a free for all that is way too much fun for the puppy. I can be a lot of fun for my dog, but I find it hard to compete with another puppy in the fun department!
I hope this helps.
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Hi Ed,
Earlier this year I emailed you with a raw-feeding question, via a Yahoo Group (I think), and of course you were nice enough to respond! I'm sure you don't remember me, but anyway, the raw feeding is going great with our four dogs. :)
Only by accident did I come across your Leerburg website today, while Googling for information on the dominance issue we are now having with our two female littermates, 14 months old, lab/chow mix. I only made the connection that you were the person I emailed about raw feeding when I saw the photo of your dog's food bowls in the article you wrote on pack structure!
Anyway, I want to ask you which of your books or DVDs would you recommend for our specific issue? A little history... we rescued these two pups in November of 2008 from a litter of eight. They were 7 weeks old at the time. They were brought into our home which already consisted of my husband and me, a 7 year old female golden retriever, 6 year old female chocolate lab, and a 12 year old cat... all spayed. Other than typical puppy issues times two, and a couple of occasions of (seemingly minor) food aggression between the puppies (which prompted us to begin feeding them crated, separately), all was great. But around their 9 month age, all heck broke loose, and we had three incidents of severe fighting, with resulting minor cuts and gashes. Two of these incidents happened when I was home alone with the dogs, the adult dogs were in another room, or outdoors, and I was FREAKED OUT by the fight and only got them separated by pinning one down to the floor with a barstool. The other incident happened when my husband was home alone with them, and unfortunately he was bitten, clean through a knuckle. After that incident, we hired a trainer experienced in behavior modification (Karen, whom we knew slightly, through a friend), and she began with basic obedience (heel, sit/stay, down/stay, etc), all of which the puppies learned very well. But then she began working with them on "reintroduction" to each other, over a few weeks period. (I forgot to mention that between our first phone call to Karen and the first appointment with her, we had been keeping the pups completely separated, per her instructions... only one outdoors at a time, always crated indoors, even leash-walked from crate to outdoors, etc) -- well, anyway, the reintroduction seemed to go well in the beginning, at first both on leash, always with Karen present, walks around the block to tire them out first, transitioning to leashed time together in the living room, for simple down/stay time... and then some yard time with one on leash and the other roaming loose. Well, this is where fights began again, and we simply gave up on scheduling further sessions with Karen. Now it's to the point that they can't even LOOK at each without going into fight mode (occasionally they will catch sight of each other when my husband and I are bringing one indoors while the other is being taken outdoors, again always on leash). They are fully separated 100% of the time, no physical contact of any kind. This is taking a huge toll on our home life, daily routines, etc. My husband and I have run through all the emotions, and scenarios, even to the point of discussing finding a new home for one of them. We absolutely don't want to pursue that option, and so are hoping to try again with training. So that brings me to my questions... would you recommend continued professional training? Or will we be able to learn how to fix this from your books/DVDs? Many, MANY friends have suggested letting them work it out between themselves, but my fear is that one will die if a fight is allowed to continue... although I also would like to ask your opinion on muzzling them and letting them go at it until it's resolved? The reason I ask this is because I realize now (from all my internet research, and from your website) that we didn't handle pack structure correctly from the very beginning -- we didn't know that the pups wouldn't just learn all they needed to know about rank from our very-well-adjusted adult dogs. Both pups clearly know their rank with both adult dogs, and although they do follow our basic obedience commands, they clearly do NOT listen to us when they're fighting, or even if they're about to start fighting (one of the pups actually seems to be TRIGGERED to attack the other one when my husband or I move to stop the fight, no matter if our move is verbal or by touch... she just attacks the other one!) So, it seems to me that they never established rank between the two of them. Is it too late for that to happen?
I apologize for the very long email. I am at my wits end, and truly devastated over the situation. I've emailed Cesar Milan's website (no response), done tons of research, etc. Another thing I wanted to mention... sessions with Karen were fabulous WHEN SHE WAS HERE... but my husband travels quite a bit for his job, and I am simply unable to follow through on the training assignments that Karen recommended while home by myself... (both pups on leash in the same room, or walking them around the block at the same time). So, when he's on the road, I continue to separate them, thereby gaining nothing in the area of trying to reintroduce them to each other. Any help/advice/direction you can give is GREATLY appreciated!! Thank you, thank you!!!
Gina
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I’m going to be honest and say if you can’t follow through on the training protocol your trainer recommended or work with these dogs consistently, it may be best to rehome one of them. Managing dogs like this is something best dealt with on a daily basis, it’s not a weekend only activity or something you do when you have free time. It needs to be worked on daily. There is also a possibility that these 2 dogs may NEVER be able to be safely together without hyper vigilant supervision.
I wouldn’t worry about the pups establishing rank with each other and would worry more about them looking at you and your husband as leaders. YOU are the ones they should be looking to for direction, and how they feel about each other is not for them to act on. In other words, even if they don’t like each other you are the leader and leaders don’t allow fighting between the pack members. Period.
When dogs act like this they lack leadership from their owners. In other words their owners don’t understand how important pack drive is in how they raise their dogs.
Owners of dogs like yours underestimate the genetic power of "PACK DRIVE." Pack structure is not something new and it is not optional, and if you don’t provide the structure and leadership a dog NEEDS then he or she will behave as canines have for thousands of years and will structure your family and household their own way
If you want to fix a problem like this it takes a LOT of work. I’d start out with our groundwork program. I’d also recommend the video that picks up where the groundwork article leaves off: Pack Structure for the Family Pet.
Here is a 3 ½ hour DVD that I would also recommend titled Dealing with Dominant and Aggressive Dogs. If you go to the link on this DVD you can read about what it covers. You will also see a detailed outline of what’s in the video.
If you spend some time reading this section on dog fights, you’ll see that your problems are very common. I’ve received 6 or 7 emails just today from dog owners with very similar problems.
You can try using the search function on the website to find the answer to any additional questions. It is located in the left hand corner of every page on our website. Simply type in your search terms or key words and you will be directed to articles, question & answers, free streaming videos and posts on our forum.
I hope this helps. Cindy
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I've read your article on not raising two puppies together, but at what age do you think its okay to acquire a second dog?
Thanks,
Jeff
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That’s something that varies from one dog owner to the next. It depends on the training and progress with the original dog and how much time the owner can devote to the second one.
I would say a good rule of thumb is to start evaluating the situation when the first puppy is around 12-18 months old.
Sometimes earlier, sometimes later. I like to have my dogs about 3 years apart in age, so that I have the majority of training in place before starting with a new pup.
Cindy Rhodes
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I am constantly asked if I think it's a good idea to buy two puppies and raise them together, or people ask what I think about getting their older dog a puppy to keep the older dog company.
If you wonder what the worse case scenario could be, read my article about a pack of 
This does not mean that these dogs can never be allowed to play and run together. They can, but play with the pup needs to ALWAYS be supervised. If the older dogs get down on the pup, you are there to stop it.
