Hi:

I am new to writing to this board although I have been viewing it for a couple of months now.

I have a four year old German Shepherd rescue. He is really cute! The problem was he did not know any commands upon receipt. Thus, I bought Mr. Frawley's Basic Obedience video and sought a real life trainer. From the video, I taught the dog "sit" and "down". The trainer is helping with "heel" and some other commands.

I got the trainer from this place: http://www.dogtrainingny.com/. They seem highly decorated and so I went for it. Does anyone know anything about it?

My trainer from the Academy is very nice and the dog likes her. The problem is that she keeps insisting that the prong collar should be "worn loose like a bracelet" and that we are being cruel to the dog by having it high on his neck. She says that putting the collar on tight so it doesn't droop will hurt the dog's trachea.

I watched Mr. Frawley's video on how to put the prong collar on - I am pretty sure it is on right. However, the trainer keeps insisting we are being cruel. Not only that, but she says that the proper training collar is a "choke collar" and that their school uses only choke collars. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> (Yes, I did the test of putting the choke collar on my thigh and yes, it really hurt). Prong collars, she says are only for dominant dogs (which is seemingly the kind of dog I have.)

The dog did attack her once when she didn't have the leash and we were trying to show her how he hates feet. (The dog for some reason doesn't like feet movement - maybe he was kicked?) So she purposefully moved her feet around and of course, he attacked her (pretty fierce too - didn't break skin though).

However, other than that time he seems to like her. I don't know. She seemed open and said that she would watch Ed Frawley's video about the prong collar because her school studied Ed Frawley. She said she was shocked and surprised that Mr. Frawley would want a prong collar so tight on a dog. She also said though that Mr. Frawley deworms his dogs every day during puppyhood and does high doggie drug usage (which I don't think is true from his article against vaccines so I am thinking she may not have all of her information correct).

This week I plan to show her the video and I will see what she says. I basically wanted to ask if anyone had heard of this school and whether they thought I ought to get another trainer or perhaps it is worth educating this one? Who knows? Maybe by educating her I can save a whole bunch of dogs from bad prong collar training.

Thanks for reading this long first post. I hope I didn't bore you.

--Karen,
Lover of Misky, the best rescue dog on earth.

Ed's right, your trainer is mistaken. I watched the video and and had some of the guys at the club show me how to use it properly. It's going to take a while to desensitize your dog to sudden feet movement, so don't take him to a dance club <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The prong high and tight is so that you don't have to use much pressure to make a correction. Loose like a bracelet is not going to make a timely correction. They must not study too hard. This is pretty basic.

I don't know anything about this school but it *seems* from what little I have read to be old school Volhard (which makes sense for someone trained in the early 70s)

Dog training has evolved a lot since then.

A loose prong collar is a dangerous prong collar. When a prong collar is fit high and tight, it pinches the dog's skin. When the collar is low and loose, the prongs can (and do) pierce the dog's skin and puts considerable strain on the dog's trachea and neck muscles, it greatly reduces the collar's effectiveness. (try it on your own neck both ways!)

Any collar high and tight will give you much more control over the dog's movements and reduces stress on the dog and handler.

I'd find a new trainer. No matter how nice she may be, why pay someone for their "expertise" when YOU, clearly, are more knowledgeable. I don't claim to be an Ed expert, but high doses of medication and daily worming? I kinda doubt it. There's a lot of "info" on Ed on the internet, and much of it comes from people he's angered by not sugar-coating the truth. So she may very well have come across something ABOUT Ed, not BY Ed.

Look up the old thread from a month or so ago about choke vs. prong. A tighter prong is better in so many ways. The looser it is, the more likely it is to get hung up on fur, neck skin, etc., therefore not releasing. It's going to begin to mimic a choke if it's very loose. Print some of the pertinent threads and show them to her. If she's stubborn and closed-minded, ditch her. There are thousands of brains working on this forum, and hundreds of years of experience.

Most of these people are so deadset in their beliefs that you'll never change them. Why not contact a local Schutzhund club for a recommendation? Don't be discouraged if you don't mesh with the first trainer you come across.

Thank you all for responding. I really appreciate it. The school is using old training methods huh? Hmm...

Well, the trainer and the school both do Schutzhund also. Does anyone have any trainer recommendations for New York City (maybe I should post on the general board).

I plan to show her the video and talk to her about the prong. I don't want to waste my money and want the best for the dog (she is also against food training).

Thanks again!

Karen...

Hi, It would probab;y be advisable to find another trainer...one that knows that every dog is different and should be trained as such.The collar was DESIGNED to be worn high and SNUG on the dogs neck! This way, when a correction is given, the dog "gets it!!" like he would from an alpha dog.Any lower on the neck and you have to contend with the muscles in that area and the correction will be less effective. This trainer SHOULD know this....Move on....your dog will be happier!

I do not have a recommendation, as I train my dogs myself. In Manhattan, my vet recommended Follow My Lead, but I honestly have no idea if they are any better. Most people seem to use halties/gentle leaders.

There is a DVG America chapter in the Husdson Valley. I have met a few of the people, and my young dog was bred by one of their members.

a choke collar only corrects in one spot, where the chain and ring meet. a prong corrects all the way around. It seems funny to me that a school "studied" ed. Not that it wouldnt be worth it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />I went to school at triple crown, and he was brought up, but only because i did so.