Quick question.... if your goal is personal protection, and you have a very serious defensive dog that is biting in defense at 16 months old with a hard serious full calm bite and good grip, is there any reason to try and bring out the dogs prey drive to try and make the dog see the decoy as a play partner? I can see benefit in increasing a dogs prey drive for other reasons, but is there any reason for trying to get a dog that's doing their job well to go back into prey?

First if a dog is biting in defense, self-defense, it cannot bite full and calm...just can't.
If the dog is working in fight drive , or what some people call none specific aggression (neither self defense or dominance) then be happy and let your dog mature.
Chances are the dog is doing what you often need to train and that is move from defense to prey (don't make prey sound like play where it is a game, prey is serious stuff).
Either that or you've just completly misread your dog.
Making the decoy a partner in a game of tug over a toy (the sleeve or suit) quite simply makes no sense...ever...the idea that a dog can have a social game of play with a person who might then become aggressive to them will cause huge training problems.

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Quick question.... if your goal is personal protection, and you have a very serious defensive dog that is biting in defense at 16 months old with a hard serious full calm bite and good grip, is there any reason to try and bring out the dogs prey drive to try and make the dog see the decoy as a play partner? I can see benefit in increasing a dogs prey drive for other reasons, but is there any reason for trying to get a dog that's doing their job well to go back into prey?

OK thanks, I wasn't asking about my own dog just for the record <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But was curious as to why someone that I was training with earlier this week was telling me certain things.

I was reading this thread and it sparked a question of my own to add. It is my understanding that when training defense in PP the trainer should always end with a prey bite, in order to end the session "on a good note" and help the dog gain more confidence and calm down a bit.
Now, if this is true, is that not a neccessary step once the dog has achieved "fight drive" through the training?

If a dog is working in what some folks call fight drive or non=specific aggression is a term I've seen used recently that fits well. Nope not necessary in PP.
In sport there is the overwhelming concern about the grip quality (well in most sports). Then some steps are taken to make sure that this is sporty.
Outside of that it is not necessary.

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I was reading this thread and it sparked a question of my own to add. It is my understanding that when training defense in PP the trainer should always end with a prey bite, in order to end the session "on a good note" and help the dog gain more confidence and calm down a bit.
Now, if this is true, is that not a neccessary step once the dog has achieved "fight drive" through the training?

I have a similar question:
Would it be ok to use a family member as a decoy? I have seen this happen in several kennels, but as a family "pet" would it be confusing or dangerous for my brother to be the decoy?

Sarah, the first addition question to ask yourself....is your family member a *skilled* decoy?

Sarah, a good book is Decoys and Aggression A Police K9 Training Manual by Stephen Mackenzie to start your reading with and I would recommend reading as much as you can get your hands on. There's a lot of important info. in there and elsewhere that you should know before doing something like that. I use non expert decoys for one of my dogs, but I only do that with a dog I know to be mentally stable and social. You should read a lot before you decide if this is what you want to do. If you can find real decoys that train with whatever goals you have in mind, that's a better route, trust me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've had to in great detail tell the 'decoys' what I want them to do, and how I want them to act down to the littlest detail, and they don't always perform as asked no matter how clear I make the instructions. You could ruin a dog like this if you're not careful or make the dog unduly aggressive. Your decoys could be injured badly. At some point an inexperienced decoy with no professional direction can and probably will get bit for real. The list of what if's is long and serious. Look for a Sch. club and bring your family members along to learn the art or find a trainer that comes to your house.

Well it was sort of an off-hand question. I do intend fully to train on a pro decoy, but I mean for just general bite practice. I am more worried that the dog will become confused that this pack member is off and on agressive to him..

Thanks, Barbara, I'll look into that!

There are some great videos on this site that you could buy for that. I would talk to your trainer and see what they say. I'm waiting to do the same with my other dog, and then see what I can buy from here to compliment the training and use as homework. My husband plays rough with my male (with biting) and lots of tug, and there's no confusion, he knows it's a game. That's the only way my dog will exercise. I've read many people say they work their dogs in prey, but I've read as many that have said it's no good. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />