This is what I think:

All dogs close their mouth before they bite and all dogs are silent in prey lock. Because taking down "prey" involves more then the one drive, there is a conflict of drives at contact and while the dog has it in its jaws.

Prey lock happens before he gets the bite and in some dogs prey lock can continue long after the bite but that is a psychoneurosis problem. You Some of you may have seen it before; That "glazing" over effect we see in dogs not outing the sleeve... their eyes even dilate.

Prey lock, for most dogs, is commitment to the catch even if it is for only a split second or two. If we could read the dogs mind like bar charts we would see the drive vacillate at various points of work. At times, like at this point, the prey advances and overcomes the other drives enough so that focus on the 1st objective can happen. That first objective is the actual catch.

An interesting and funny example of the dog fluctuating after the catch can be observed in this example given in another post:

"Some dogs will continue to bark while on the sleeve. Giants are good at that, it is funny to watch and can be done." while prey is still a factor this is not prey lock.

The bark indicates conflict in prey as one would expect because the goal is to kill the prey without being hurt.

I have trained two giants from nothing to advanced narcotics and full protection work.

Both come from top level working/sport dog lines.

One is a personal protection dog for a guy who hates guns and needs to collect about $4000 - $5,000 cash from rental properties at any given day of the week and the other works for a Sheriffs Office. I liked them alot. Giants are weird but good dogs. They are by their nature, defensive but also fearless. Still... they have a screw loose somewhere <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> the barking on the sleeve still comes from internal conflict.

As far as Giants go...They are too psyco to be crazy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Maybe others can add to this or offer a new spin?

Dennis

How can a dog be high in defense and be (totally) fearless?
Wouldn't that be high in fight/defense drive and fearless. Not debating just wanting to know, smooth out some wrinkles in dog training. Trying to find out, WHATs Really Going ON!! Is drives determination bred specfic?

And is this neverous condition on the sleeve, conflict because he really wants the guy behind the sleeve? More defense/fight conflict they just happy to have the prey?

What other breds do you know that are not happy with just bitting the prey and want to fight? I know every working bred has high civil dogs that seem to see past the prey and wanta fight. But as a bred what other dog seems like the Giant? Some times the I hear the Rottie is like that, whats your experince here?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but.....Don, defense is nothing more than the desire for the dog to defend himself regardless of the reasons why...be it a cocky attitude or fear or this is my territory,etc.,etc.. Doesn't have to mean that the dog is afraid, might just mean if you don't fool with me I won't fool with you, but...you bother me I'm gonna whip your ass. In other words I will defend myself no matter what. No fear.

Then there are dogs that just like to fight. For instance, I had an Aus. Cattle Dog that was high in every drive you could ever think of...I finally had to find her another home because my cats went to live at the neighbors and all the other dogs stayed hidden all the time because she constantly picked fights. The only one she wouldn't pick on was the 95lb rottie.

As for barking and chasing prey wouldn't it depend on the breed of dog. For instance fox hounds and coon hounds bark while chasing prey. Another thing to consider is herding instinct...they will often bark and nip at stock to get them moving.

I just think it's hard to have a definite reason for everything that every dog does. In reality are any two exactly alike for the exact same reasons?

Barking while chasing prey....hmmm....
My shepherds are pretty quiet, but my dad's pomeranian loves to chase jack rabbits and barks the whole way. Funniest thing you've ever seen....little red furball after big foot and ever few yards he lets out this little yip <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

defensive = Little bit sharp and fast to fight

fearless = confident in its ability to defend itself

Elizabeth, My girls had a pom. when they were small children that had prey drive out the waazoo.... and yes he barked while he chased...best rat killer we ever owned!!! He was a trip! My schipperke and adult Mal are quite. The Mal will sometimes let out a low bark and growl just as she gets to her victim.

Dennis, Aren't there different levels of defensive drive? Would a dog with a moderate level of defensive drive be considered sharp? Or is sharpness required for them to be considered defensive?

As for fearless, I think you know it when you see it!

Let us try it again and see if they close this thread when they can not win.

Dog barking on the sleeve is defense. This does not show a dog that is confident on the sleeve. Rottys talk on the sleeve is just insecurity.

A pack of dogs will bark when chasing, but just take one of them and they do not bark. I have been with the sheriffs department when we cut the hounds loose on escapes. They did bark. When we would practice with them one at a time, they barked the first time out of habit and then they just ran after the bad guy. It was cool to watch.

My granny has a palm also. It will bark when chasing but never caught anything except rats. When it chased the rats it did not bark. The bigger game it just barked and always kept its distance. She did not have the courage to catch and kill prey.

It was nicer when I lived in the country. You could sit back and look at genetics and not get it confused with training.

Hope it helps,

Originally posted by Randall Hoadley:
Let us try it again and see if they close this thread when they can not win. Statements like that will get a thread closed faster than anything.

If ANYONE has a beef with the moderation on this board they need to take it up with Ed. Be forewarned though, I don't think you will get much pity.

Originally posted by Debbie High:

Dennis, Aren't there different levels of defensive drive? Would a dog with a moderate level of defensive drive be considered sharp? Or is sharpness required for them to be considered defensive?

As for fearless, I think you know it when you see it! Hi,

Sharpness is just an indicator of weak thresholds before triggering a response.

Dogs are either defensive oriented or prey oriented in their nature but all dogs have some of both. It is sort of like a base level of the dogs temperament. It is individualistic but both prey and defensive qualities can be built.

The sharpness how ever is a temperament thing.

You can change the behavior but you cannot modify a dog's temperament. While he can be taught control of impulses, the dog will revert back to its nature under high stress.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Randall Hoadley:
Dog barking on the sleeve is defense. This does not show a dog that is confident on the sleeve. Rottys talk on the sleeve is just insecurity.

Reply: I don't think this is true in ALL dogs. I have worked and trained several REALLY nice PSDs who were noisy on a bite. They were barky in muzzle fights, on suit bites and yes some even noisy on real street bites. There was nothing wrong with their nerve nor were they insecure. To say being "barky" on a bite is always a weakness is a broad statement and one that IMO is not at all always true. Many of the dogs who did this were very clear-headed and social dogs. One in particular is one of the best street DP dogs I've ever worked. This dog will face down a 300 pound monster in any alley and take it on, yet go home and lives in the house with a 1 1/2 year old child and 2 other pet dogs. He "barks" on his bites a bit and growls too, if he's a weak nerved wash-out I hope all wash-outs are just like him.