My current program with my new 4 month Mal.

Socializing, socializing, socializing.. And a lot of drive building (ball) and some (bitework) on tug. (I'm afraid that he's soon to start teething and would rather just build drive.

My issue is that my friend/breeder/trainer told me that I should be working on bitework and improving the grip. I told him that I prefer to do drive work now since my pup has a genetically hard/full mouth grip. My friend's advice comes from "Barth Belogne" a Belgian who's supposedly the expert on Mals.

I explained that I can work the grip soon (since I'm doing "some" bitework.) I don't want my pup not to bite later on due to lack of successful bites.

I also said that I'm going to be doing some tracking but was advised to wait till the dog is at least 8 months old..

My friend is well intentioned but I feel that not everything he is saying is worth following.

Any advice is appreciated.

John,

If you're planning to go the SchH/Ringsport route, continue socialization, start tracking and do motivational OB. Tugging at the end of a short OB session could amount to the quantity of bitework/grip development you need to be doing right now. If you're unsure about the extent of 'bitework' you need to be doing right now or if you don't have an experienced person there to help you with it, it wouldn't lose sleep over the quantity of bitework you doing or not doing.
Just make sure the dog understands that he/she needs to bite hard and full in order to win the tug. Bite - Tug - if the grip isn't really deep - give the opportunity for re-grip - Tug a little more - dog wins tug.
You could be making a lot of progress tracking and doing short, fun, motivational OB sessions at this time. Do those things and look for a good trainer/helper to work with in the mean time. I didn't start formal protection work with my female Mal until she was 6-7 months old and she went from a tug to a trial arm in one session. If its there genetically, and you have a good helper, you'll have little to worry about.
Bart Bellon is one of the best dog trainers in the world. That being said, there is a huge difference between what Mr. Bellon is capable of doing when starting work with his dogs and what a relatively new trainier/handler an ocean away is capable of swinging in a similar time frame. This boils down to experience and support from a club.
Hope this helps.

 Quote:

John,

If you're planning to go the SchH/Ringsport route, continue socialization, start tracking and do motivational OB. Tugging at the end of a short OB session could amount to the quantity of bitework/grip development you need to be doing right now. If you're unsure about the extent of 'bitework' you need to be doing right now or if you don't have an experienced person there to help you with it, it wouldn't lose sleep over the quantity of bitework you doing or not doing.
Just make sure the dog understands that he/she needs to bite hard and full in order to win the tug. Bite - Tug - if the grip isn't really deep - give the opportunity for re-grip - Tug a little more - dog wins tug.
You could be making a lot of progress tracking and doing short, fun, motivational OB sessions at this time. Do those things and look for a good trainer/helper to work with in the mean time. I didn't start formal protection work with my female Mal until she was 6-7 months old and she went from a tug to a trial arm in one session. If its there genetically, and you have a good helper, you'll have little to worry about.
Bart Bellon is one of the best dog trainers in the world. That being said, there is a huge difference between what Mr. Bellon is capable of doing when starting work with his dogs and what a relatively new trainier/handler an ocean away is capable of swinging in a similar time frame. This boils down to experience and support from a club.
Hope this helps.

I still haven't taught him any obedience.. I'm working on his drive using a ball on string (orbee) or a tug.. He bites very hard on the tug with a full mouth and calm grip. I've tried firing my gun above him and he doesn't flinch.. The ball, however, kinda slips.. The orbee balls get very slippery when wet.. I will be teaching him obedience in drive..

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

you wrote:

My issue is that my friend/breeder/trainer told me that I should be working on bitework and improving the grip. I told him that I prefer to do drive work now since my pup has a genetically hard/full mouth grip. My friend's advice comes from "Barth Belogne" a Belgian who's supposedly the expert on Mals.

>Do you mean Bart Bellon?
>I'd have already started imprinting tracking. Balls are
>sometimes good for building drive, but I've found tugs
>better for building drive AND grip. I like the interactive
>aspect of tug play as opposed to throwing a ball.

 Quote:

you wrote:

My issue is that my friend/breeder/trainer told me that I should be working on bitework and improving the grip. I told him that I prefer to do drive work now since my pup has a genetically hard/full mouth grip. My friend's advice comes from "Barth Belogne" a Belgian who's supposedly the expert on Mals.

>Do you mean Bart Bellon?
>I'd have already started imprinting tracking. Balls are
>sometimes good for building drive, but I've found tugs
>better for building drive AND grip. I like the interactive
>aspect of tug play as opposed to throwing a ball.

My friend is the Breeder & will be assisting in training my dog. Bart Bellon is "HIS" contact. We have differing opinions on what training to do. My friend said that Bart's recommendation is to stick to bitework (with minimal drive building) and no obedience or tracking before 6 to 8 months. I disagree on the part of drive building and tracking..

We both agree that socializing is the most important thing to be doing right now..

you wrote:

My friend is the Breeder & will be assisting in training my dog. Bart Bellon is "HIS" contact. We have differing opinions on what training to do. My friend said that Bart's recommendation is to stick to bitework (with minimal drive building) and no obedience or tracking before 6 to 8 months. I disagree on the part of drive building and tracking..

We both agree that socializing is the most important thing to be doing right now..

>Hi John

>You have to be real carefull about second hand information.
>I think what you're getting is what your breeder, "thinks"
>Bart said? Which may not be what he actually said? :-)
>Anyway, IMHO the younger you start the puppy the better.
>Tracking, obedience and protection. Not formal training,
>but shaping and imprinting. Tracking: heavy baiting (every
>footstep) Obedience: Operant conditioning Ivan Balabanov
>and Mike Ellis are great for this. Protection: lots of tug
>work, always in prey. Outs trained with trades: two tugs
>start with the first one, lots of fun, than the first one
>goes dead. Activate the second tug, puppy loses interest in
>the first tug and is attracted to the second. When he drops
>the first, you mark it with a YES or ? and start playing
>with the second...repeat the process and eventually the pup
>will be spitting out the tug and downing to activate the
>second tug. When the pup is old enough, you trassfer to a
>decoy. Start with Jambiere or leg tugs then go to suit.

 Quote:

>You have to be real carefull about second hand information.
>I think what you're getting is what your breeder, "thinks"
>Bart said? Which may not be what he actually said? :-)

True.. same thoughts here.. That's why I made sure to mention that this is second hand information that may have been changed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />..

I'm doing tug work with my pup but have not started the out.. Is it better to Mark with a Yess!! or should I use the AUS command once he spits the first tug? what do you recommend to work more on.. ball (drive work) or tug?.. Something worth mentioning is that the pup is 4 months old .. i'm supposing that teething will begin soon.. so maybe ball /drive building will be better? but I will still need to give him success once in a while..

any advice is appreciated...

One of the big things I remember from an interview with Bart is that he doesn't socialize. He felt that a Mal that needs to be socialized is not a dog he wants to work with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Of course, it's not like I am Mr Socialization either. Just something to think about when you are choosing who to listen to, and or what to listen to.

 Quote:

One of the big things I remember from an interview with Bart is that he doesn't socialize. He felt that a Mal that needs to be socialized is not a dog he wants to work with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Of course, it's not like I am Mr Socialization either. Just something to think about when you are choosing who to listen to, and or what to listen to.

What would be your definition of socializing? And why doesn't he want to work with a Mal that needs to be socialized? I can think of 2 possible answers to that and they are complete opposites <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> So figure I'd ask instead of assume.

Mike,

Here's a link to the interview I believe everyone in referring to Bart Bellon Interview

He says he selects a puppy based primarily on its desire to retrieve (pick things up, carrying items, etc) and social stability; curious, no fear, inquisitive, etc. From this interview, he feels a pup that has these characteristics needs only the socialization he'd recieve through training at the club. Mr Bellon's philosophy is that you must do your best to select a pup that has no fear, 'has too much of everything'. If a pup/dog is afraid of a situation, desensitizing type socialization can, and often does help, but does not change that fact that the dog is elliciting a fear response, and probably always will at some level.