Pano vs OCD...I know a beaten subject but.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Symptom Questions…

Does symptoms of Pano reoccur multiple times throughout it’s course returning more so to the front limbs?

Would it be a truthful statement; pain symptoms caused by OCD would not provide off and on symptoms? And/or OCD symptoms would be continuous that would progressively get worse?

I am curious to see the opinions and/or what the experiences have been re: the above questions.

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Reason for ?'s
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A friend’s male 14mth old GSD front limb is causing him to limp however this pup has had wandering lameness in the past, which first was diagnosed as Pano months ago.

The owner’s concern is that this limp has returned to this one front limb for the third time but these limping episodes have come month’s apart w/no lameness at all in between but this episode has lasted now for almost 2 weeks w/some days limping more noticeable than others where now his vet is leaning towards OCD although the initial extensions performed showed no reaction from this dramatic pup but grabbing the long bone has.

Another question…Would someone know of a site where information that is more detailed can be found regarding symptoms as most found are vague?

This owner has lost a previous dog that was only 2 years old to anthesthia (not a GSD)and is hesitant wanting to wait it out a bit more before having the x-rays done.

My last GSD had pano but I cannot recall the reoccurences, if any and/or the length of bouts (it was over 13 yrs ago :-). I am not a vet although I have great interest in its study still feel it is pano (although stating to him x-rays would confirm as if it was Pano it would be more detectable at this stage but understand his issues).

I would also look for Elbow Dysplasia. This can cause limping on and off. The few dogs that I encountered with OCD when I worked for a vet was limping on a regular basis. It never really came and went. Someone else may may have seen a case that limped on and off. We did surgery on the dogs and removed the chips and the dogs were fine. The one was a Lab that was extremely driven and was fine to work afterwards...

Clinical signs of OCD of Medial Humeral Trochlear Ridge: ..foreleg lamesness or stiffness and stilted gait starting between 5-8 mos. Occasionally, lameness is not obvious to an owner until later in life. Lameness is intensified by exercise and is often most prominent immediately after resting. ... Pain may be elicited by deep palpation over the medial collateral ligament orby stressing the ligament by flexing the carpus 90 degrees and rotating the foot laterally....

OCD fo Humeral Head: ...most aniimals show clinical signs between 4-8 mos.; some will present much later, at 2-3 yrs. Lameness is often first noted after severe exercise, but it may be insidious in onset....A shortening of the swing phase of gait leads to atrophy of the (shoulder) muscles.. if lameness has been present more than 2-3 wks. Change of gait is most noticeable at the walk. Pain on palpation is variable and is more often noted on severe extension than flexion or rotation.... Clinical signs are most notable after rest preceded by heavy exercise.

Then there's UAP, FCP, and UME, not to mention Pano. Pano can involve multiple sites, tho there is no evidence that the foreleg is more frequent. Since all of these conditions except pano involve arthritic changes, which are most noticeable immediately after the dog has rested following exercise, whereas pano is not more painful after a rest, that might help in pointing you in one direction over the others. But none can be diagnosed without xrays. Why is anesthesia necessary just for elbow/foreleg xrays? I never use any sedative for these views. The longer the conditions are allowed to continue, the greater the damage to the joints, unless of course it's pano.

Wow Lee..Thanks

Your breakdown explanation was very very helpful.

you wrote:
"Why is anesthesia necessary just for elbow/foreleg xrays? I never use any sedative for these views."

I agree...I do not know why this person's vet would require anesthesia (The dog I used as a subject, was a 14mo male I just recently met w/his owner while taking a different route on a walk that only entailed a 30 min conversation just yesterday. His pup and Gypsy got along real well ..so this route may become more regular <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> , I should learn more about that?) as the old route ...boring...

I suggested to the owner that he should inquire about an oral mild tranquilizer after stating close to the same question you did but I didn't get the full scoop...It had something to do w/dog being unable to be manipulated and equipment issues etc..(most likely nerves)

(Gypsy, my pup, is due for her first x-rays (prelims) in a few weeks . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> then it's off to the club <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again for the breakdown

I was just wandering what type of food you were feeding your dog? I have had a dog with pano before and it helped to feed him adult food. It helped his bones to catch up to his normal size. Most of the time when a dog has pano, that means he is going to be a big dog and his bones are growing too fast. Sometimes it can last from eight months to two years, maybe a little longer. It will help to give the dog a aspirin a day for pain. Do you have the dog on concret? Sometimes that makes the dog stay with pano longer than he normally would. If you are feeding your dog adult dog food you might want to do the opposite and give him puppy food. I hope this was a little helpful. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Darrel

A Note: The OCD / Pano ?'s was about curiosity initiated by a shepherd I met recently <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> not Gypsy (Just wanting to eliminate any confusion. I plan to start Gypsy in Schutzhund once her prelims are done. She hasn't had any problems so far nor do I expect any ..knock on wood.. it stays that way <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

But I can tell you what I have done w/my pup...and the results of such <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Gypsy, now 11 mths old (female). I took her off puppy food when she turned 3 mths old, just for that reason you stated, to slow her growth. She was placed on a quality kibble having less than but never more than 23% "max" in proteins.

Currently she still is fed some kibble, but her diet more consists of raw foods (adjusting either or to maintain nutritional values not to exceed %'s etc..) I do not feed kibble & raw mixed or at the same time due to different digestive requirements. Additional considerations taken when starting her more on raw (6mths) was the way raw nutrients absorbed differently acting more as positives found vs the processed foods(kibble)IMO.

But, even though careful attempts to slow her growth were and are still made...she still had a couple of unbelievable growth spurts. example: going to bed in p.m. where pup was small w/little legs, then waking up next a.m. to find the pup on stilts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> but happy to say no pano, and she never has had any digestive problems either..if you know what I mean..

Regarding the concrete...Gypsy is spoiled rotten who resides in my home having padded carpeting under her paws who sneaks up to cuddle w/me on the couch when I am not looking <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> also having a cushy pad in her crate <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . But she switches to full intensity when training.