At training the other day, the helper started a "new" approach to out the beginner dogs during bitework. He suggested that in order to get the dog to drop the prey item, pull up on his collar, getting his front feet off the ground, and he'll drop it.

I didn't agree with this approach, since I wouldn't want my dog anticipating an out every time he gets a tight lead. Before, we would wait until the dog dropped it, and the helper would snatch it away. I suggested that we keep doing it that way, atleast until the grips improve. I don't know, maybe this approach it easier for the helper, but I don't think it's best for the beginner dogs. Any thoughts?

By the way, this topic is in the wrong area. Moderators, feel free to move it if you need to.

Wrong button when I moved this...

Any way, it does work but I wouldn't do it with a sleeve unless absolutely necessary. I prefer patience on many levels. If you have done bite building properly I don't think that the tight leash is going to get the dog to release because that pressure has been applied during bite building. I am not wild about forcing a release in the begining of training. I would rather the dog decide on it's own that the way to have more fun is to release the prey so the game can start again.

I dont know if your talking about the sleeve or not but Ive seen lots of people do this. I dont think its much of away to teach the out but more like away to get the item back so you can keep doing the bite work. I also havent seen it teach the dog to out just because of a tight lead. For one reason correct bitework involves the dog being on a bite with tension on the lead and also pulling the handler to the bite.Back to the topic, I dont view that as teaching an out.There are other ways to actually put emphasis on the dog doing an out for a much quicker reward.

With the beginner dogs, the helpers are using a puppy sleeve attached to a lead, in which he can swing around and make the dogs miss to build them up. I favor that idea to build frustration. But I noticed during the out, some of the dogs would become a little mouthy just as the handlers reached for their collars to out them after the 2nd and 3rd bites. Richard, is your idea waiting for the dog to drop the sleeve, then snatching it away to start the game again? There are a few dogs that were starting to hold the prey for longer periods of time before dropping, making the snatch away game almost impossible, and now that the collar trick has been introduced, it seems to have moved them a step back. Any thoughts from others are welcome.

David you're right, it seems to be more of a time saver that anything else, especially with the dogs that were starting to hold the prey for longer periods of time. What is the correct way to do this, or do I need to see a video? I don't think I'm going to convince our training director(who has 30+ yrs experience) that he needs to see a video, lol, but for my own benefit.

What we do for young dogs is just about what you do. We let the dog grab the tug, and get a good grip. We'll then grab the dog's collar, and hold the dogs head up and wait for the tug to fall, this could take a few seconds to a few minutes. As soon as the tug is released, you give an out command. When the tug hits the ground you kick the tug back towards the helper, this starts the game back up. This is the way I was taught to teach the beginning steps of the automatic out.

I forgot to mention that when holding the dog's head up, his feet never leave the ground.

I don't believe this is a "new" method. Our club helper (when he decides he is willing to be one) favors this method, and it is his way or the highway, so I spend a lot of time on I-95 going to a different helper. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Remember, YOU own YOUR dog, and you don't HAVE to do anything with it that doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't take long to screw a dog up! Let him test his 'new' method on the other dogs!!

You are not teaching the dog to OUT, only choking it until it can't breathe anymore and natually, the dog will spit out the sleeve. I know that they will tell you to say out, so the dog builds an association, but it will cause more problems than good. However, I have not seen it cause the dog to out when the line is tightened...

As with anything in dog training, I don't agree with Richard. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I teach the out with compulsion and a toy. The end result is a dog who will SPIT the toy or sleeve out without any chewing or hesitation. Like anything else though, if you do it too often the dog will get chewey! Alternating the out with tugging, holding, running, and other excercises will help to eliminate the fear over losing his toy/sleeve. You have to read your dog and adjust to his/her needs.

There are a MULTITUDE of posts dealing with the out and the many ways to accomplish them. Some are bad, and some are good, but they are all worth reading if you have the time.

Have seen that method used by a trainer working with an American bulldog that would be just as likely to hold the tug all day as to drop it. However, he does not use that method with the GSDs and Malinois that he also trains. Also not something we'll be doing with my dog.

It seems to me that this would be a rather long difficult road to take to teach the out. Not that I’m opposed to taking the long road. Personally, I like to take my time and really develop the grips. In training Police dogs we don’t always have a lot of time. Nevertheless, we don’t teach the out until the dog is confident with a secure grip. The process that you are describing (choking the dog off) is something that I have been doing for the past year with the police dogs that I train. Don’t get me wrong our dogs do out. However, I have felt it necessary to really develop the drive in our dogs rather than the pretty and precise demo dogs. Some may disagree but simply choking the dog off with no verbal command keeps the dog focused on the prey and (in drive), which is what I have wanted to accomplish. There are many affective ways to teach the out (third party corrections into the sleeve, e-collar, self out) the way that you described would not be my choice. For most dogs the out isn’t that hard to teach when done properly. IMO it is not something especially with a sport dog to get in a hurry to teach.