I need some opinions here. Ive been watching the video links on this board of late showing lots of dogs training, trialing and sales/promotional videos of different kennels. One thing that amazes me is when the decoy lifts the dog off the ground or wraps him up, or gets the dog in an otherwise lesser position where if, on the street, the dog could be seriously injured or killed; the dogs do not disengage. They are happy to stay put and let the decoy have their way with them.

Neither of my street dogs allowed themselves to let the bad guys have the upper hand for very long and they will disengage and rebite to put them in a position to be in control. It is my opinion that when a dog does this it is an element, or evidence that the dog possesses fight drive. Both dogs have been battered by bad guys and never retreated but have repositioned themselves to continue to battle with their target.

My question is this...Is this truly evidence of fight drive or has the dog just learned to handle himself in real life situations from his personal experiences? Are the dogs that I see in the videos just as tough but inexperienced, or have they not been allowed to "learn" how to fight humans for real? Is this a result of not enough muzzle or hidden sleeve work? I was curious what others think of this.

I posted this here because of the thread headline. Might should have posted in the police section. I do not want to start an argument of sport vs police, just would like some thoughts.

Howard

Quote:My question is this...Is this truly evidence of fight drive or has the dog just learned to handle himself in real life situations from his personal experiences? Are the dogs that I see in the videos just as tough but inexperienced, or have they not been allowed to "learn" how to fight humans for real? Is this a result of not enough muzzle or hidden sleeve work? I was curious what others think of this.

I have a question on this for you. With your dogs, did they "get it" that first time? Or did they figure it out the next time. I am curious to see also how much bitework they did before this.

My curiosity comes from how quickly they figured things out, considering training doesn't really involve shifting grips all over the place. I wonder if the answer doesn't lie in how much training/conditioning occurred before the actual situation, and then how quickly the dog decided to override this training/conditioning.

I should also mention that I am of the opinion that there is no fight drive.

As far as sport dogs, we condition them and breed them based on the grip more than many other factors. (not I, but the general "we" ) We also train them to maintain that grip, and even though some of the stuff that occurs looks overwhelming, it is usually done in stages, and not extremely painful or inheritantly dangerous to the dog. I guess I should say that I don't do things that are dangerous or painful, but stick to things that look painful if they were to connect, or confined areas to build pressure that way. There are enough wierdos out there that might do things differently.
Plus, many times the things you see being done are being done by the decoy that has caught them most all their lives.

Howard. Some years ago Iwrote a definition of fight drive which is still on my web site. Here it is:


My definition of FIGHT DRIVE is this: “A dog has fight drive when his protection work carries the forwardness of prey with the intensity of defense. A dog with good fight drive is willing to engage a helper or suspect in every circumstance, under every condition regardless of training equipment being present or not being present. A dog with fight drive knows he can win every fight that he get into and is willing to carry the fight to the suspect.”

Jeff - your comment about not believing in fight drive only indicates that you have not yet had enough experience.

The fact is most sport people have never seen fight drive in sport dogs. Oh they may think they have seen it but in fact they have not. They confused active prey with fight drive.

Once an experience trainer have seen a dog with fight drive they will know it. A dog with fight HATES the helper the instant he sees him - the helper need not do anything, need not have protective equipment he only needs to be seen by the dog and the level of aggression in the dog is where the differance is. It's not defense it's aggression.

Jeff - your not qualified to offer advice on this topic.

Howard - I think a dog that bites and releases and reengages is a training issue.

Howard ,

I don't think this is evidence of fight drive , it's just how your dogs choose to fight .

I don't think a handler will truely know the style their dog will take in a real fight until it actually happens . Equipment is too easy to get a good grip on and most dogs will just hang on for the ride because of it no matter how much presure is put on them .

Both my K9's had/have been in lots of tough fights with real badguys . I prefer a dog that holds 1 strong bite . My 1st dog was like that . My current would occassionally move on the apprehension in a big fight when he started and as time goes on I've seen less and less of that . I've seen some suspects take advantage of a dog repositioning and make it over a fence or cover quite a bit of ground before being taken down again . 1 grip also causes less injury in most cases .

I want my dog to be a big weight keeping that guy from going very far so me and my fellow officers can get there and help take that guy into custody . Many times we have to move in to help take that badguy to the ground or get his hands behind his back and it's much easier with a dog that's going to stay in 1 spot while you got 4-5 officers moving around him pulling , rolling the suspect into a position to be handcuffed .

BUT , I think it's mainly a preference and nothing else . One dog's style may be more advantageous in certain circumstances then another . Many times it's dependant on what the suspect is doing or willing to do that makes 1 style better in that instance .

Howard asked ,

 Quote:

Are the dogs that I see in the videos just as tough but inexperienced, or have they not been allowed to "learn" how to fight humans for real? Is this a result of not enough muzzle or hidden sleeve work? I was curious what others think of this.

I'd have to know more about those dogs to answer that but I'd like to add I've never seen a video where the decoy actually acts like the real badguys I've seen engaged with a K9 . I've seen decoys put lots of presure on the dog but it sure don't look like the real thing . I try my best as a decoy and I can't get close enough to mimicing a real badguy . I don't think it's possible to . Just my opinion .

Quote:Jeff - your not qualified to offer advice on this topic.
What advice? I asked some questions.


ED's COMMENTS ON THIS POST:

Jeff - you said you don't believe in FIGHT DRIVE - unless I read it wrong.

Asking questions is fine - it needs to be made clear for new handlers that there definitly ARE DOGS WITH FIGHT DRIVE - you just have not seen any yet.

Howard, what you described sounds like a dog fighting naturally. And as a serious and practical real-world PPD owner I have been torn by some of the differing philosophies on the matter. There is the prevailing view that the dog should go straight in, bite hard and hold on. My concern would be if the bad guy has a knife or a club in one hand (a likelihood)the stationery dog is going to be an easy target. I do like the idea that my dog would "dodge" a punch or a kick and then re-engage. My thought is a dog that can survive longer will give me more time to respond, escape, etc. A dog that goes straight in, bites and then gets stabbed in the neck just seconds into the fight is quite likely no longer of benefit to me.

But I've never been involved in anything like that so my thoughts are just conjecture.

I'd also like to add that I realize that a PSD should go in and bite and hold due to liability, etc. A PPD dog is not under the same liability risks.

Ed's Edited in comments:

Patrick - you obviously are not a police officer and while this may be your opinion - you are 100% wrong. It is obvious - by this coimment - that you do not have the training to comment on police service work with K9's. The purpose for my forum is to pass good trianing information - not for the public to pass along unfounded and incorrect information. Stick to the sport threads.

jeff-you're fighting an uphill battle buddy. you can't disagree with the man or his henchmen/henchwomen.

patrick-i think you touched on a good point. as any trainer worth his or her salt would/should tell you, there are no absolutes in dog training. to say a dog should ALWAYS bite/hold is unrealistic at best. ideally, i would say that if the suspect is only trying to get away, then yes, a bite/hold would be desirable. if the suspect was actively fighting/punching/kicking the dog, then a dog who holds on for dear life is going to get the crap beat out of them, especially if the suspect is wearing some type of clothing that gives them some protection from the bite. in this case, it would be better for the dog to "typewritter" a bit (i know i just raised the hairs on the back of the necks of schutzhund people everywhere). even mr. frawley's video stresses the importance of transitioning from a leg bite to an arm bite and vice versa. my only point is that there can be no absolutes...

I am still curious about what I asked.

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the refresher. Your definition of fight drive pretty much applies to my previous dog especially the obvious hate of a decoy no matter the equipment, lack of, or location. He was a nasty little critter. Now, my current dog is identical to the last one but the hate factor isn't quite as high. No doubt he wants to take it to the decoy but the hate doesn't ooze off him.

I find it interesting that you believe this is a training issue. In training neither would disengage unless they were obviously being overwhelmed, and usually only when ground fighting with a decoy in a full suit who has gained the upper hand and has the dog at a severe disadvantage. I may be wrong but I sorta equate this type of movement to those ultimate fighter guys. When they're on the bottom taking a beating, they don't stay there for long. I know you cant compare human behaviour to dog behaviour, but isn't survival something every living thing has and are willing to fight to stay alive?

Jeff does bring up an interesting point though. Did the dogs do this from the get-go or did it come later? To be honest, it came later. It's something they do only when the situation is very nasty, otherwise they stay put with a hard grip (along with the normal head shake <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> when apprehending bad guys.

As an example....Bad guy beats the crap out of girlfriend then runs away. Police find him and he runs through taser and into the woods where he is sitting down mostly concealed.Dog finds bad guy who refuses to give up and reaches for something in his sock. Dog is immediately sent and just happens to grab the arm reaching for the sock. The bad guy starts pounding the dog and tries to choke him out. Dog lets go, grabs bad guy on chest/shoulder of the offending arm, puts bad guy in bear hug and drives him to ground on his back. The whole scenario takes about ten seconds to unfold. Is this poor training or learned behaviour from experience?

Disengaging the decoy may not be an element of fight drive after all. It may just be an experienced street dog doing his thing so, like me, he can go home at night. It just always struck me as odd that a dog would stay put on the bite to his death when all he had to do was reposition himself to stay in the fight to win. After all, if knowing he will always win is a big part of fight drive, why not ensure the obvious outcome (in his mind, winning).

I guess if I was a dog and felt there was no way to lose, then I would stay on the bite...even if my head was spun 360 degrees by some idiot.

Ed, I'm trying to understand your comment concerning this behaviour as a training issue. Care to expound. I sure would appreciate it as I feel now I am overlooking something. Thanks

Howard