Thought I Knew a little but am learning I only know a little. What are all the uses for the whip in bite training?

The whip brings the dog to a higher drive state. I started a thread on the whip a month or so ago under competitive obedience. I've crossed the whip over from protection to obedience and use it to speed up recalls and dumbbells. Its working great so far (and I did learn to crack it finally!)

In protection it makes my dog a little more intense in his bark and bite although it does make a bit of an issue in the out.

Mitch,
I view the whip as a crutch for lower drive dogs.
I've had several training partners use them through out the years and I've always noticed that the heavy use of them in training equaled a substandard performance on the field.

For the dogs that learn to go into drive with a whip, well....the whip isn't used during a trial and the scores show it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

We have a better understanding of dog drives nowadays, and better training techniques and tools - use those instead to your benefit.

I've also taken notice that extremely high drive dogs can be easily over-stimulated by too much whip and end up in prey-lock.

Along those lines I think the whip causes problems if you are trying to make your dog neutral to gunfire.

IMO: it all depends on your goal. If the goal is for the dog to take punishment and continue the fight, then the way to do this is the same as with all other training...gauge where the dog is at in training, and start incrementally to introduce the whip. Here the whip is a fine tool; however, not the alpha or omega, a skilled agitator can induce the same amount of stress just with eye and body contact. Any PSD trainer can also confirm the benefit of allowing the dog to run the helper off under leash tension and encouragement from the handler...stress...prey...chase...dog wins because helper disappears – so it all depends on what you are training for, and is the dog suited. Building from a good prey foundation is essential, add stressors as he grows in experience and confidence, and if the dog has solid temperament, he will be fine with the whip.

Does it work? Well, I have seen several PSD's that were started young as Schutzhund dogs, then retrained and worked as PSD's from about 16-20 months that could...and, unfortunately did...take stab wounds and gunshots and continue fighting, and to the best of my knowledge none had the crap kicked out of him in every training session...in fact, very little actual physical stress was ever applied, just the whip as a tool. Most were also completely trustworthy in a room full of 6yr. olds, and would just give one of those goofy grins and move away if the kids got too rough. Guess somebody was doing something halfway right in practice huh?

The thing with the whip for me is this, it is to enforce the one thing we fear most, fear of gun fire, the dog must be neutral when it comes to gun fire and not perceive it as something that can hurt or even kill him. He must get to the assailant and remove the “stick’, by attacking the hand that has it. This is good for crowd control dogs and takedown dogs, where you have an active shooter for instance, or someone shooting out of a crowd; the dog will focus on the source and pin it down. I can sight some examples but I will spare you the detail.

So yes the whip is a great tool still, it just depends on what you want from it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

"He must get to the assailant and remove the “stick’, by attacking the hand that has it."

Huh? Ya'll are training a dog to target an item in hand for Police work? You're kidding, right?


And:
"The thing with the whip for me is this, it is to enforce the one thing we fear most, fear of gun fire"


We have these things called "blank guns" that work over here for that training.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Will, so are you saying not to use a whip at all? My use has been to get him use to noise and striking motion while holding a bite. He is still young and am trying to keep in prey all the time. He is a more defensive dog than a prey monster and the crack of the whip coming on to the training field does get him going. I do not however let this be the only thing to get him turned on. We are getting out of sport and just going to do P.P.work. Thanks to all and would like to hear more if you have it.

Mitch,
We train with blank guns for ASR way more than a dog would encounter the noise during SchH, so I find the whip to not be needed. Our entries are done under gunfire ( blanks, of course ), so they're an intrical part of the program.
And as I said, I've seen *many* dogs and their handlers become reliant on the whip to work the dog up, only to crap out during a trial when the whip wasn't used. I would urge you not to fall into the problem by using the whip as a crutch to build drive.

I use both a SchH padded stick or PVC insulation wrapped with duct tape to engage the dog with for strikes, and they work just fine.

I think you'll find that heavy use of the whip is a hold-over to the old days of training when better methods weren't available. A lot of older trainers will be hesitant to change their style of training, so we'll be seeing the whip for a while longer.....or used exclusively on weaker dogs in the future.

Will, is the purpose of the clatter stick the same as the whip (with the exception of striking with the stick)? I've never used one but I've seen them used and it seems to me that the purpose is to "rev" up the dog. Maybe I'm missing something there. Thanks.

I view the clatter stick as more of an article of opposition, as fewer dogs are trained against it.