This is a spinoff from my previous post, but one I thought might be nice to address on it's own. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Obviously there are parties here who feel that compulsion MUST be used to teach the out in a particularly high drive dog. While I have never debated that compulsion would be necessary eventually in the dog's training, I maintain that compulsion is NEVER necessary in the teaching phase of any exercise, including the out.

So my questions:

1. How is the out compulsively taught? Since it must sometimes be compulsively taught, there must be general methodology? Keep in mind teaching means TEACHING, not enforcing. I can't imagine any way inwhich teaching the out using compulsion would not result in either a dog that is afraid to bite, or a dog that is extremely/dangerously possessive. I also can't imagine any dog inwhich it would be NECESSARY to use compulsion to teach. Even breaking the out back down to it's basic fundamental: The tug game, allows positive teaching of the out in any dog with the desire to play with his handler. IMO/IME.

2. I have never had a "dangerously" possessive dog. I've also never compulsively taught the out to any dog, always positively. Is the fact that I've never experienced extreme/dangerous possession a) because I've never had a high-drive dog (HIGHLY unlikely) or b) because perhaps the method of teaching the out that I prefer to use does not foster possessiveness as the dog grows in age and confidence?

Jennifer stated;

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b) because perhaps the method of teaching the out that I prefer to use does not foster possessiveness as the dog grows in age and confidence?

I just need clarication . Are you talking about the out as it pertains to teaching dogs from a very young age ?

Both actually... I've worked with some young green dogs as well, though obviously I prefer to work with puppies because they haven't already been screwed up. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If working with a green dog, I still take him back to the fundamental: The tug game. I use this to teach the out, and before using correction ensure that the dog understands to both out off a toy upon command, and out off of a helper in a simple situation where the handler stops moving and the command is given.

Generally, I employ compulsion (in the form of the collar, which is my preferred method) when trying to teach the dog to out on command REGARDLESS of the fact he'd rather be fighting the decoy, but at that point he has a foundation in out off a toy and out off a helper in a simple bite. I have my helper follow suit in my teaching of the out by simply remaining still and neutral. Once the dog has generalized compulsive enforcement can begin.

As an aside, I never allow compulsion to come from the helper in teaching the out. I want my dog to FIGHT the helper, not out when he applies discomfort! So while I've seen it done, and it might be okay for SchH, I prefer compulsion to only ever come from me.

Yep I teach the out the same way you do, learned it from Ivan's dvd also, he is truly a master, I have no problem with my dog to out, I had to repeat the out only once, from since he learn to bite the sleeve all the way to SCH3, and that time I think he did not hear me.
The other way that some people teach the young dog to out is to say out and lift him up with the prong until he drop the sleeve then immediately kick the sleeve back to the helper to keep him in drive and start again.
He is also not possesive of toys or food, the combination of the early out training and I think the other reason for that was because he saw god when he was 12 weeks old, he latch onto my arm because I was trying to put his bone into his crate but he thought I was trying to take it away from him and so that little puppy had the nerve to put his full mouth on my arm, I decided to put him in his place right away before he got bigger and that was it.
I also like to use electric to proof and use food or toys to teach.

Jennifer stated;

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I maintain that compulsion is NEVER necessary in the teaching phase of any exercise, including the out.

I've dealt with a ton of green PSD's and PSD candidates and I find this truely amazing . Most of our dogs can be taught the out motivationally but there are some extreme dogs that will not let go of a tug (anything for that matter)motivationally . No matter what is offered as motivation to let go . Out of the 16-17 new PSD's I help teach a year there are on average 1-2 dogs like this in a class . This is in the teaching phase off a tug or kong . We also go to some less desirable rewards (PVC or just a toy lower on their list of favorite rewards) in an attempt to teach the out motivationally and they still won't out .

The number of dogs that won't out off a decoy motivationally even after some have a very good foundation in outing off of rewards motivationally goes up from there .

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If working with a green dog, I still take him back to the fundamental: The tug game. I use this to teach the out, and before using correction ensure that the dog understands to both out off a toy upon command, and out off of a helper in a simple situation where the handler stops moving and the command is given.

That's what we do it's pretty basic and it works very well for most dogs . High prey drive dogs are often very easy to motivate an out off of something , I've found .

But there often has been exceptions . Some won't be motivated off a tug and then their are the ones who have an excellant foundation(motivationally) to out off tugs , toys , etc. that change once they are up close and personal with a decoy. Some were fixed by going back to basic outing off a tug for awhile but there are some nothing will change them from outing except compulsion.

I'm sorry if your claim that ; " compulsion is NEVER necessary in the teaching phase of any exercise, including the out ." are true you could make alot of money helping others . I come from a training unit that does alot of problem solving outs and other problems for PSD's and most can be solved motivationally but there are plenty that can't .

I'm not one that believe you MUST use compulsion to teach an out , far from it but I also don't believe you NEVER have to use compulsion to teach a dog . Sorry I'll believe it when I see it .

Jim,

Judging by your post, again, I think that you are mistaking my definition of Teaching for Enforcement. When you say that the dog might out motivationally on the tug, but not on the decoy, then that means you've taught the out. You now need to enforce it. We are not disagreeing.

If properly taught (waiting out the dog if need be) then it can be employed with a helper and enforced from there. Again, we're not disagreeing. I just stop my definition of "teaching" at the point at which the dog understands that out means out. Enforcement begins after that.

I'm disagreeing that teaching the out can always be done motivationally . That's a huge claim to be making. I do believe you have done it with your dogs , I just think you have to see more dogs .

I have seen dogs that won't out motivationally off of tugs , toys and other types of objects . I've learned motivation is the best teacher and don't want to steer anyone away from motivational training but I've seen many dogs that this can't be done with in teaching the out off of anything .

I agree without a doubt I haven't seen as many dogs as folks here, so I do think some of it might be experience level. In my experience, what I've stated has proven to be true and I will stand by it and stick with it until proven otherwise.

The difference between myself and someone else is, when I'm proven otherwise I'll admit it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Hehehe! I would be interested, when I'm in a position to have a dog hanging around, to take on a particularly difficult dog and TRY to apply positive motivational methods to him.

It would be interesting experimentation, and something I'd like to revisit when I have a couple kennel spaces. Maybe someone on this forum would be willing to donate a dog for the cause. A real hard-headed one! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jim,
You train similar dogs in caliber that I do and your observations and mine are identical, I see!

I wish that I could start training dogs as puppies, but that's usually not possible with the dogs that I train and sell for serious work.

Same here about training a puppy . I've entertained the idea of buying 1 to train to be a possible PSD . That would be interesting I just don't have the funds to risk .