I'm fairly new to this board and was hoping some other experienced SAR folks read it regularly. I like to "discuss" things - helps me to learn new things and/or also re-affirm my own decisions. I re-read all the posts regarding SAR and found an interesting discussion that I'd like to take a step further. It probably would be helpful to the newbies too who may be cruising this board for information.

Some folks have said they no longer use runaways for teaching airscenting. Since this method is in all the books, what beginning steps do you now use to teach the young dog to search in drive?

I'm hoping for a lively, yet professional discussion...

Konnie,

IMO, runaways were/are useful for dogs that don't have particularly strong hunt and/or prey drives. Dogs with good hunt don't really need a runaway, and dogs with high prey drive often get too cranked up by the running away that they aren't really learning anything b/c of their drive state.
In starting nrew dogs we just have a few subjects placed along a woodline, or in the woods (in a line) about 30-40 yrds apart (each hidden behind a tree/brush, etc) and let the handler walk the dog (on leash/longline) on a line 10-15 yrds parallel to the line of subjects, taking into consideration the wind direction. Each subject has a reward for the dog when they are 'found'.

I think the overall quality of the dogs in SAR is improving and therefore the training techniques are changing. When I started in K9 SAR, only about 6-7 years ago, runaways were the norm for starting airscent training. Understand too that most people getting involved in SAR, at that time and before, were bringing the dog they already had and trying to make a SAR dog vs. selecting a dog specifically to do one of the disciplines within SAR. Often these dogs were missing significant characteristics that are very desireable in a SAR dog, so the training was done in a manner to help compensate.

Now, it is getting better. People are usually making an effort to select the appropriate dog for the job...so they're looking at things like prey, hunt, retrieve, etc...
There's nothing wrong with using runaways if you need to, but its just not the cornerstone training technique that it once was.

I would agree that many new ideas are coming to the forefront. A lot of people still use runaways succesfully to start a dog.

But when I think of our water training we started this fall with divers (and have progressed to other material, longer problems, etc.) - the dogs did not need to see the diver at all - there was no runaway.

We started by going right in to the submerged diver, and the dogs caught on real quick that locating the scent source would result in a diver popping up out of the water and rewarding them. As problems advance to without the diver, a reward is given by the handler as close to the source as possible when it is located. (but the divers are extremely motivational)

Immediately when the dogs get into a boat they start scanning for scent and until they find it and lock on it. They go into drive with the orientation cue (the boat).

The biggest argument I have heard against too much runaway work or starting a dog with runaways is that the dog started extensively with runaways is likely to revert to visual searching when the scent is lost and they become frustrated.

The counter-argument I have heard against that argument is that the dog who is reverting to visual has not had enough training time searching negatives (areas without scent) before it hits the scent of the victim. In other words the "nose clock" has run out because the dog expects a reward after, say 30 minutes of searching and has never run a problem for 4 hours before locating the victim and becomes confused - kind of like expecting a dog to stay for 30 minutes when all of your training has only been 1 minute stays.

I think this in is constrast to trailing where the dog is pretty much working in scent continuously, even though they do have to work out negative areas, and the trail is motivating of it self.

Most of airscent is "negative searching" and the best insights for that, on this board, aside from experienced SAR handlers would, IMO be people who train detection dogs.

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IMO, runaways were/are useful for dogs that don't have particularly strong hunt and/or prey drives. Dogs with good hunt don't really need a runaway, and dogs with high prey drive often get too cranked up by the running away that they aren't really learning anything b/c of their drive state.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. I have seen firsthand the effects of runaways on dogs with high prey drive. I agree that the dogs don't seem to be learning anything when they are in that state of mind.

Thank you also, John, for sharing your method for starting new dogs. I think this kind of information is really helpful to new folks, since it doesn't seem to be mentioned in any of the SAR training books. (Maybe I just haven't read all the books!)

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The biggest argument I have heard against too much runaway work or starting a dog with runaways is that the dog started extensively with runaways is likely to revert to visual searching when the scent is lost and they become frustrated.

Have you seen evidence of this firsthand? I used to have a wilderness dog and I never had that problem with her and never saw it on my team. That's the only experience I have to draw from though.

I train primarily in disaster search now. We use runaways to teach a dog to move quickly over the rubble. The helper is always hidden at the end of the runaway and before the dog is released. Then the dog still has to alert on the hidden helper's scent. There is no visual cue after the helper leaves.

We use runaways for this because if they learn to search the rubble by moving slowly, then they'll always tend to move/perform too slowly and pick their way through the rubble (I have a study somewhere on this in lab mice too - I'll try to find it). The issue of the dog "not thinking" (related to John's comments above) is of some importance here too. I don't want my dog to think too much about the rubble, but a very high drive dog needs less hype during the runaway (perhaps just a walk-away and then quickly progress to a visual prompt like a "pop-out," or verbal like a call-out) so they're not moving so fast that they hurt themselves.

In a nutshell, in our training it depends on the drives of the individual dog too (just like John mentioned), but I've never seen a disaster SAR trainer steer completely clear of some variation of the runaway. Of course, I haven't seen all the trainers out there either.

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Most of airscent is "negative searching" and the best insights for that, on this board, aside from experienced SAR handlers would, IMO be people who train detection dogs.

I definitely was hoping some of those folks would chime in!

Great discussion so far! For those of you who don't use runaways - do you still feel like you get the speed and coverage you need from the dog? If so, what do you think produces this? Is it just the drive of the dog? How much "play" do you incorporate when the dog reaches the helper?

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The biggest argument I have heard against too much runaway work or starting a dog with runaways is that the dog started extensively with runaways is likely to revert to visual searching when the scent is lost and they become frustrated.

Have you seen evidence of this firsthand? I used to have a wilderness dog and I never had that problem with her and never saw it on my team. That's the only experience I have to draw from though.

Actually I HAVE seen a young dog go get a bit frantic try to go visual when she lost the scent during a challenging problem but she was worked through it and has grown into a very nice working dog.

I do think runaways are very valuable in training the alert sequence for a Wilderness dog, though. To put together the chain of events, particularly for recall-refind.

While some dogs need to be pumped up during a runaway others need to be stroked and calmed with he subject walking away so they stay clear.

As far as play, I would say a good 20-30 seconds by the helper is what we have done.

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Actually I HAVE seen a young dog go get a bit frantic try to go visual when she lost the scent during a challenging problem but she was worked through it and has grown into a very nice working dog.

This is really great information. (which is why I started this thread) It seems to me as if dogs under stress or in confusion situations revert back to their "foundation training," so this would make sense. Do you think that's what happened in the above situation?

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While some dogs need to be pumped up during a runaway others need to be stroked and calmed with he subject walking away so they stay clear.

Very good point. I agree!

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As far as play, I would say a good 20-30 seconds by the helper is what we have done.

This is what we typically do too. There are a few situations where we do less, but for the most part its the same length of time.

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This is really great information. (which is why I started this thread) It seems to me as if dogs under stress or in confusion situations revert back to their "foundation training," so this would make sense. Do you think that's what happened in the above situation?

I don't really know. I have heard the same thing and HAVE seen dogs revert to foundation training when handlers have mucked around with changing the alert (been there - made that mistake) but I really don't know about this since it was just one observation -- it is the premise for the statement which I think is in the Jeff Finlay school as to why he does not support runaways - but I have seen big differences in how dogs handle it when they "loose the scent" that I think may be more indicitive of the individual dog than anything else.....

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but I have seen big differences in how dogs handle it when they "loose the scent" that I think may be more indicitive of the individual dog than anything else.....

I think your original statement addresses this too (see your quote attached...)

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The counter-argument I have heard against that argument is that the dog who is reverting to visual has not had enough training time searching negatives (areas without scent) before it hits the scent of the victim.

There are dogs that can locate a victim when they have scent. Finding scent where there is none is a separate and necessary skill to teach.

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There are dogs that can locate a victim when they have scent. Finding scent where there is none is a separate and necessary skill to teach.

This is why we teach dogs in the manner I described above...b/c we're teaching/imprinting the dog in a manner which allows them to use their nose without the visual stimulus of a runaway. Under stress, dogs will revert to their foundation training and imprinting. I agree with Nancy in that eventually all Air-Scent dogs will do 'runaways' as part of the find-recall-indication-refind sequence, but this is after each of the steps is taugt and understood by the dog. I believe that with a good dog, the find and refind don't need to be taught with the classic runaway.

I am speaking in terms of wilderness air-scenting as I do not have much experience with USAR/Disaster work.

This also emphasizes the importance of selection. There is only so much you can do to teach hunting behavior, and it is a lot harder to manufacture/teach hunting than it is to select a dog that has good hunting drive/instinct genetically.