Can anyone give me insight into what I can expect to see from now on with my 12 month old intact male GSD?

Up until yesterday he NEVER showed aggression of any kind toward any animal or anyone. In fact, I have written posts on this board asking for help because he was soooo incredibly friendly and loves other dogs too much.

I bring him to obedience (group) lessons every week. The lesson includes about 5 dogs, all neutered, some puppies, some adults, etc. He is ecstatic to go to these classes. But yesterday during the class the trainer brought out her 3 year old intact male border collie to join the group. My dog went wild. He barked aggressively the instant this dog joined the group, tried lunging at him 3 or 4 times and had like a crazy look in his eyes! There was control of all dogs during this time and the border collie completely ignored my dog. My corrections for his behavior (pops with the prong collar) I could tell were meaningless. I finally had to pull his two front paws off the ground momentarily to get him to focus on me and feel the correction. After that he calmed down a bit but we all knew he was not the same dog as before the border collie appeared.

My question: Is this normal behvior for an intact 12 month old male when they meet another intact male?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Is this what I should expect from here on out?

If so, are there any pointers anyone can give to help me in the future on walks where other dogs he may encounter may also be intact males?

Judy,

check out this thread on Socialization Concerns

My comments are on the 4th page. Give it a shot and e-mail me if you have any questions.

Judy,

Most intact male at that age could behave in the similar manner towards other males. Not an abnormal behavior. You can correct that behavior by an E- COLLAR or a strong Prong correction as you did but it will never be 100% proof. I would not take my male young dogs near other male dogs.

Hope this helps.

Rashmi

Not that it solves anything but I have voted border collies as "most likely to GET jumped" from those I have met.

I think it could be related to (1) eye coloration/contrast and (2) the "stare" which they seem to do more often than other dogs.

I do know that the trigger for my female with other dogs is having another dog stare at her.

That is very, very interesting. Mostly because my GSD's aggressive behavior toward that border collie the other day was the very first time he came even remotely close to aggressive barking at any dog.

Well, if anything, it taught me that you really have to be ready for anything when another dog is around.

I'm still not too clear on this though...is my dog's behavior typical for an intact male due to the fact that he has not been neutered? Again, he's never done this before.

I agree with Nancy. I don't have much experience with intact males, but my female BC has had a couple dogs react to her simularly. Never by a dog with a "laid back" attitude, but a one or two with a more dominant, alert personality. If I remember correctly, she wasn't even really staring at them, more of a sideways glance. But she does have an intense look in her eyes.
When she looks at me its like she is trying to read my mind.

Actually the reason that border collies are likley the most often jumped by other dogs is likley more due to how they see/control with thier eye. Border collies WORK with thier eyes!!! They intimidate, send of vibes, control, push, and have a LOT Of power due to useing thier eye.

If you are not familiar with this, you likley don't even know it is going on!!!! They can be doing it from thier crate with other dogs, stock, way outside a pen, nowhere near stock, on a long down etc.

The "eye" is thier power! And they most often KNOW how to use it.

As well, border collies are likley one of the most dog aggressive breeds around. Might be due to thier intensity (that they can 'give' off without even moving using thier eye!) They do not like to be disturbed while they are working /concentrating etc.

It took me a LONG while to get my border collie due to the above. My guy is very good with other dogs/breeds but he has been around them from day one. He is also a very social fun loving dog..thank goodness.

Could the trainers border collie have been eyeing your dog without even knowing it from other lessons etc? Might even be giving off some 'communication' that you don't know but your dog certainly does.

I am assuming your dog has been around other breeds?

BOrder collies are also very fast and they play like they work sheep (so do gsd's!). Border collies will go in real quick and give a nip on the face/hock of the dog in play. Gsds's like to grab the neck of other dogs (as they would on sheep) and this can be real intimidating to other dogs. It is a sign of control/dominance which is correct however, gsd's will also play like this.

Interestingly enough, my border collie grew up with gsd's (one is close to him in age) and they play SO well together. The first time I took my border collie to be with other border collies he was ticked off at how they played! He was so use to the gsd!! He didn't like it at all. However, put him with a gsd and he has no problem!!

Shelley

This is the most interesting thing I have heard of in a while....BCs do have that cool, far off stare. How do they use this to work?????? Can they actually get animals to move in response to their stares...not meaning to sound dumb but this really intreagues me.

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This is the most interesting thing I have heard of in a while....BCs do have that cool, far off stare. How do they use this to work?????? Can they actually get animals to move in response to their stares...not meaning to sound dumb but this really intreagues me.

Yes, from what I have read. They have been bred to stare down a sheep. It's called "eye," and I've read that a BC who has worked for a long time can get into unintentional trouble with the stare on another dog, who would view it as a challenge. I've also read that children should be taught not to stare into a dog's eyes, but *especially* a BC.

A sheep who is stubborn and stares back gets its nose nipped.

http://www.tvss.org/Demo.html

I don't know this personally, but I've read it on several breed sites, and it makes sense to me.

Some border collies will have a lot of eye, others will not and some need to learn how to use thier eye (show them the power they do have by using thier eye).

It is quite amazing. In short, yes, they use it to work, and YES, the can VERY much intimate stock to move by just staring at them!!

Every dog has 'presence' and this is read by sheep very soon after meeting them. Upright dogs (anything that does not crouch to work sheep....which is usually just the border collie and kelpie) will have a presence as well and will back this up by other means. Dogs with a lot of presence, often do not have to use other means (grips etc) to get sheep/stock to move. Stock just respects thier power and presence. Same with border collies. Some will be very strong eyed, others weaker.

Some eye dogs will be TOO strong in thier eye which actually then works against them. I have judged a kelpie that used it's eye to move sheep (backwards) on a course, however they only made it to the first obstable in the 10 min. allotment for the whole course. (which was approx. 10 ft. from where it started!) This dog needed to be 'loosened' up with thier eye and using it. It is often referred to as 'sticky'. The stock needs to know that they will back up thier power /eye etc. Sometimes all it takes is to get the dog moving more freely around the stock. Keeps them on thier 'toes', so to speak.

My border collie (Riggs) has good strong eye and knows how to use it. (I also taught him how to use it and that he has a lot of power using it!) When he comes up to stock that is stubborn, doesn't want to move etc, I give him the opportunity to use his eye in moving them. Often it just takes a few moments of staring at the stock and they move, NO questions asked! Sometimes, with some harder stock he has to back it up with a grip. I try very hard to teach him patience! Coming from a background of working mostly non eye breeds I was used to a dog moving sheep with thier presence/body etc and the sheep always obeyed. Thus, I allowed Riggs to grip often so that I could move stock quickly (sometimes, you just want to get the flock where you want them fast so you can go inside out of the rain!) Thus, Riggs learned that if they did not do what he wanted 'instantly', he could grip. I had to work on him using his eye more. Now, that is the first thing he does and I try to be more patient..lol.

Border collies are VERY intense dogs and because they use thier eye can be very 'narrow' in what they see/hear going on around them. I always know when Riggs is listening to me or when he is working the sheep and not listening! (even though he is right close to me and not moving!!!). I have to 'break' that concentration before I can 'teach' him something.

So, yes, border collies might see the stare of another dog as intimidateing just like many dogs that don't know how to play well will see the neck grip of the gsd as intimidating.

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A sheep who is stubborn and stares back gets its nose nipped.

That is true but you also need to give sheep a chance to make the choice to move before it is nipped (dog using eye).