Hi All,

My 11 month old GSD was in the garden eating when 2 young girls came in to deliver something and he attacked them.

My garden is COMPLETELY fenced and this has never been a problem before as we have very few visitors, but I did know he could be agressive as he was VERY defensive of the home when we had people over.

Of course I corrected him severley but it did nothing for his "rage". Turned out he had a "nip" and not a bite at one of the girls and no real harm was done (no broken skin).

This morning I was taking him to my mothers and he went nuts at the neighbour (again a fenced garden) jumping on the fence trying to get him etc.

I asked the neighbour to come closer to the fence slowly and I gave him some hotdog to throw for my dog, which he ignored, and continued to jump on the fence etc. At this time I went to correct the dog, as he was barking and he bit my arm.

Now granted the skin wasn't broken and it didn't hurt but is this a sign of things to come? I've had agression problems with this dog before and I thought we were making progress but this is a step WAY backwards.

Also last night I saw him go into aviodance while barking at someone coming into my mums house for the first time. I had been told he was not a nervy dog by a previous evaluation I had done by a shepherd expert (he was pretty good) but the behaviour last night blows that right out of the water in my mind.

Couple of questions:

1. Is this likely to continue regardless of how hard I train him (we've been working pretty hard on his training).

2. Can I do something to stop him becoming a nerve bag? Maybe he's already there!

3. Can I trust this dog? I'm not going to make excuses for any behaviour.

4. If I can't trust this dog should I euthenise or rehome to a GSD rescue? I can't live with a dog I can't trust.

Some of these questions I'm asking myself but feel free to provide the answers you would give in the same situation.

This dog is well socialised and trained and is very good around kids/ other dogs etc. but seems to be becoming more and more nervous and I KNOW he's not had a bad experience as he is never off leash or out of sight.

Would I get the same behaviour from a dog from working lines rather than show lines or are working class dogs less nervous in general?

I've been told that I would have been much better getting a dog from working lines as they are MUCH more stable and willing to work for you. Is this true?

Sorry for ranting for so long but I'm just annoyed right now :-/

Cheers

John

Welcome to 'my' world. Full of people, kids, new sights and new sounds. As much as I may SAY it's my yard, people do come in. And they are not (well, never) mass murderers but merely kids or repairmen, or some other clueless person.

The reason I always go to professional trainers with my dogs AND socialize the heck out of them is to prevent EXACTLY what happened to you. Dogs that haven't met hundreds of people by 11 months old, and may have a sharp or protective side, have ZERO ability to tell the difference between the mass murderer and the Girl Scouts selling cookies. All people are potentially scary and need to be dealt with. Instead, I want my dogs to be prepared for my 'real' world. Where the vast percentage of people they meet are friendly or/neutral, and only a tiny percent are the mass murder type (had dogs for 13 years and have yet to run into a mass murderer, so feel pretty secure with my statistics).

At 11 months, your dog has already been thru alot of socialization stages and growth phases. You can't really go back (obviously) but you can make it better. Figureing out what kind of aggression is really going on is vital. http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression/aggression_main.html

And learning about 'socialization' and WHY it's so important for you to expose our dogs and prepare them for the world. I am NOT talking about making our dogs into Labrador Retrievers that will lick every human they meet. I'm talking about raising CALM, CONFIDENT, and dogs with a temperament that allows them to gauge situations and feel comfortable in new places.

Here's some info you can read about this:

Site 1

Site 2

Site 3 - May be too detailed for most people

The first thing I would do is take him to the vet and have the vet run a full-panel thyroid test as well as a blood sugar test. Both low thyroid and low blood sugar can trigger aggression and you want to eliminate any possible medical reasons for the behavior.

Then I would have a professional trainer, one who knows how to assess and deal with aggression such as a police k-9 trainer, personal protection trainer, schutzhund or French ring trainer, come out and evaluate the situation. Ask your local police department for recommendations and get references.

At a year old , he's growing up and is in the adolescent stage where he, like any teenager, is going to test the boundaries and your leadership. I wouldn't give up on him yet, but I'd get some help.

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This dog is well socialised and trained and is very good around kids/ other dogs etc. but seems to be becoming more and more nervous and I KNOW he's not had a bad experience as he is never off leash or out of sight.

I forgot to comment on that.

He's a BABY, still maturing and changing. It's why WE have have to continue supporting, socializing and TRAINING them. I know if I have problems I IMMEDIATELY call up my dog friends/trainers/etc and we hit the 'problem' running. Very proactive and head it off early. I've never found 'problems' to go away, but rather get worse, if I put if off for a bit.

The fact you said he was 'VERY defensive' when people come over, is a Red Flag for me. And not something that shows good socialization OR training. One thing if my dogs just bark to alert when someone comes over. But when I then say 'knock it off' they know it's ok. And due to all our training, they stop the barking, and due to all the socialization they then go up to the person for a sniff and maybe to bring them a ball.

I had friends that got a Rottie as a 'watch' dog and LOVED/encouraged all the frantic barking and growling that the pup did the first year when new people came over. They thought it was so cute when he was a puppy. And they wanted everyone to know not to mess with their house! But what they ended up with was a dog that could NEVER be trusted with anyone but family members, and (sadly) spent the rest of it's life in a chain link 10X10 kennel in their yard. Hey, the burglars were free to come in the house cause the dog was safe in the kennel!

Not an expert, just a dog fan, but PLEASE dont jump the gun on getting rid of your dog, one way or the other. I beleieve I've read here and elsewhere that GSD's hit the one year mark, their hormones start dumping, and their aggression amps up, so I'm not ready to call your dog a "nerve bag" for what it perceives as defending it's yard. Changing it's perception is where you come in. Have patience and good luck.

Jenn:
"Dogs that haven't met hundreds of people by 11 months old, and may have a sharp or protective side, have ZERO ability to tell the difference between the mass murderer and the Girl Scouts selling cookies."


Jenn, are you saying that with socialization that a dog with protective and territorial insincts will be able to tell the difference between two intruders ( say a child verus an intruder bent on evil? ) ?

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Hi All,

My 11 month old GSD was in the garden eating when 2 young girls came in to deliver something and he attacked them.

My garden is COMPLETELY fenced and this has never been a problem before as we have very few visitors, but I did know he could be agressive as he was VERY defensive of the home when we had people over.

Of course I corrected him severley but it did nothing for his "rage". Turned out he had a "nip" and not a bite at one of the girls and no real harm was done (no broken skin).

John,
I 'm not trying to diminish the seriousness of the situation, and since the girls escaped, more or less, physcially unscathed...we can start looking at the underlying cause of his aggression. I'd start with his age and the situation.

At 11 months, he's an adolescent. He feels strong & may will attempt to assert himself, but may not have the courage to follow through with some of his actions. He will also capitalize on situations and take the opportunity to do as he sees fit, given the opportunity.

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I asked the neighbour to come closer to the fence slowly and I gave him some hotdog to throw for my dog, which he ignored, and continued to jump on the fence etc. At this time I went to correct the dog, as he was barking and he bit my arm.

I wouldn't worry about this a whole lot. IMO, this is displaced aggression. He bit you out of frustration, not because he wanted to eat you. When he does this, pop him in the nose and re-direct him to a toy that he can bite or use OB to make him control himself.

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Also last night I saw him go into aviodance while barking at someone coming into my mums house for the first time. I had been told he was not a nervy dog by a previous evaluation I had done by a shepherd expert (he was pretty good) but the behaviour last night blows that right out of the water in my mind.

Again, he's an adolescent...don't be too hard on him about this. His stunt with the girls was a situation in which he felt strong...one of the reasons probably being b/c they were young girls...people he could push around.

This person at your mother's (an adult?) may not have fed into his assertiveness, so then, b/c of your dog's age realized he may have bit off a bit more than he could chew. In short, he was acting like a bit of a punk, got called on it, and then wasn't quite sure what to do.

Jenn thanks for the links, I'll have a look at them later.

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The fact you said he was 'VERY defensive' when people come over, is a Red Flag for me. And not something that shows good socialization OR training.

Should have made myself clearer here perhaps about the "Normal" temprament of the dog.

In the street/park/dog training classes etc. where there are lots of distractions/kids/dogs/bikes/skateboards, you name it he couldn't care less who/what was there and his OB is very good in these situations, even off leash, with sit/down stay with people and dogs walking withing one foot of him, and he doesn't even look at them most of the time.

He will walk up to them in the given situations when I allow it and have a sniff/lick then walk away.

He knows how to "LEAVE" something on command including stop barking to that command, which we used to help stop the barking at the neighbours when they walked along the side of their fence.

I do not and have not enjoyed my dog being this agressive but the fact is I can't pay people to come to my house and have a crazed dog bark, lunge and snarl at them unless I pay pro dog trainers $70 per visit. I don't have that kind of spare cash.

I'm not taking your comments personaly but I don't know how you can say my socialisation & training has not been good without seeing the dog.

I might take a small video of his normal range of behaviour in these situations and then another video of his agressive/defensive/nervy behaviour.

I appreciate any comments offered.

Cheers

John

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1. Is this likely to continue regardless of how hard I train him (we've been working pretty hard on his training).

Probably, but work on pushing his buttons and not letting him push yours. Also, try to look ahead in to situations and manipulate the situation according to how you want your dog to react. By doing this, you're teaching him by passively allowing him to be succesful and not reacting to how he tries to manipulate situations.

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2. Can I do something to stop him becoming a nerve bag? Maybe he's already there!

Nerve bags are usually born and rarely created. I the context of what you're describing, he doesn't really sound like a nerve bag.

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3. Can I trust this dog? I'm not going to make excuses for any behaviour.

I think you can trust him, but you need to trust yourself, your training and your capabilities. Even pretty nasty dogs you can trust...you can trust that they're going to be nasty, and operate under that assumption. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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4. If I can't trust this dog should I euthenise or rehome to a GSD rescue? I can't live with a dog I can't trust.

Ultimately, that's a question only you can answer based on the level of comfort you have in understanding the dog and your ability to read, train, and handle him.

Hi John,

I might have overreacted but I got a bit of a fright on both counts of the biting, more on biting me to be truthful, not because I'm scared or cant take a bite, but more along the lines of I NEVER thought he'd even consider that with me....he knows whos boss without any doubt in my mind.

When he done it I lifted him clean off the ground with the scruff so I think I acted quickly enough to let him know he was WAY WRONG albeit maybe a bit over the top!

What you say makes complete sense to me.

I was thinking of getting an e-collar to help me with his training as we have quite a big yard and getting to him/catching him to correct at the right time/in time when he's in the yard and acting up is a problem. Would this be an appropriate option at this time?

Cheers

John