Can some of you clear up for me the right or wrong of enlisting the help of family/self in beginning training for PP? I've asked questions of this board before on this and have gotten answers such as:

1) Yes, you can have family members hide in bushes in dark downwind (or is it upwind?) so the dog can't know who it is.

2) Yes, you can have family members wear the bite sleeve while your dog's in prey drive.

3) Yes, you can tie your dog to a tree, using harness or collar and build the excitement of the sleeve keeping it just out of reach.

The operative word in the three scenarios is "you", the owner.

Mini Background: intact, male, 13 month GSD. No PP training yet, just me watching Leerburg tapes on the subject. Have had 3 professional helpers tell me, NO, do not use yourself or family members in any portion of any training whatsoever. None of the 3 helpers has been hired yet. I'm at the interviewing process right now.

Any thoughts on whether I'll do damage to the dog and our bond if, using common sense, I practice with the bite sleeve or set up scenarios using family members as the bad guys?

Since I've come to rely on this board for sound advice, I'm perplexed as to who to listen to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> !

Judy, if you are viewing Ed's tapes: drive, focus & grip & then the preparing your dog for the helper you will see that you can do alot of the prep yourself. The tug work should be done & then the transition to the bite pillow would be the next step which you also can do. In fact I still work both my dogs on a back tie with a bite pillow regularly between bite work/decoy sessions. This can be done for a long period of time before moving on to a decoy. Just be sure that you keep the dog working in prey & don't push him into defense or you will destroy the bond you have with your dog. Depending on the drives & training of the dog, many young dogs don't go onto a sleeve until well after a year old. Don't be in a rush take you time with the dog. Laying a good foundations in bite work is the key to good results later on in more advanced work. It is not the part of training that you want to rush into or rush thru. As far as family is concerned....that's a hard call...some dogs will do ok doing that with family members while others might get bit overzealous & you could have problems even if you keep it in prey. You may find that your dog might start bitting on their arms when they get excited even when not "working".(& with the safety of a sleeve) You have youngsters in the house, so that may not be such a good thing to do. BTW they really can smell them & know who they are from quite a ways off. They are not so easy to fool when playing hide & seek. You just might be better off working with someone totally outside of your household so the dog can make a clear distinction as to who to roughhouse play & bite with. My female is exteme & she gets over the top when my son is around (he was living in the house with me up until she was 8 months old & played rough with her)& she will bite him in play & sometimes really get him when she is over the top. In fact both my dogs will get really excited & nip at my arms sometimes as well when we are out playing & sometimes they get too ruff & they know it & stop & look at me like oopps, just got mom in trouble now. So be carefull about what you decide to do. You might want to consider waiting until you find the right person to work with & get good foundation work done instead of using family members just 'cause they are avaiable for free & willing to help. JMHO You may get other advice from someone like Will or the other really experienced trainers here on the board. Good luck.

So, then, my question now would be (to you Anne and everyone else) should I run far away from the professionals in my area who tell me NOT to do any work on my own <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> !

Judy, I guess that depends on a number of things....1: are they saying this because they want to get your $$$ sooner rather than later. 2: is it because they want to see the proper foundation put on the dog correctly & question your ability to do that.(in the best interest of the dog & not for the above reason) 3: Are they concerned that if the dog does not have the correct genetics for the work & you push the dog into something that it isn't ready for or able to do (due to genetic disposition or lack of maturity or some other reason) that you might end up with a dog that may be questionable in suitability to be in a family environment with children or other untrained individuals or just ruin the dog for further work. 4: Are the trainers that you are looking at well qualified, well respected, professionals that you can verify their credentials. Have they titled dogs, when, where, what breeds of dogs, what titles etc. etc. etc. These are all questions (and more) that you will have to answer & decide for yourself if you want to put yourself & your dog into their hands. So it is not just a question of runing away. I will say that Bernhard Flinks, who is the trainer in Ed's tapes is world renown. I have attended a 5 day seminar of his ( as have many others on this board) & he is 'all that & more' as they say. He has competed at the highest levels internationally with his dogs, is a k9 officer in Germany, well liked & respected & his dogs & their training & titles speak for themselves. I would be much qicker to follow the formula that he set out in his tapes, (which includes a great deal(many months) of tug & back tie & bite pillow work in preperation for the work with a decoy/helper,( as long as you know how to do it correctly) before I would listen to someone that is trying to get my $$$ that I don't know from Adam. I would do allot of research on these 'trainers' before making a decision on one. JMHO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Any work done in *prey* can be done by yourself. Any *defensive* work should be done by the helper (NOT YOU).
Keep in mind that the helper should not be doing *everything* in defense. For a young dog, most bites and chases will/should be done in prey. Build the dog's confidence with good prey bite/chasing. Once you're sure that the dog is *very confident* in chasing/biting the helper (dog should be at least 24 months old some dogs mature earlier can be worked younger ). Then the helper can begin to introduce *gradual defense*. Eg. the dog chasing the helper and suddenly the helper puffs up and looks very threatening (level of threat should be according to the confidence level of the dog). The dog might hesitate and might take a defensive growly bark. He should immediately be rewarded by the helper running away and giving a prey bite. That relieves the stress of defense and at the same time builds the confidence of the dog.

I suggest to find someone that really knows what he's doing.

Regards,

This is a bad idea . You need to find a reputable club to join or a reputable trainer who works as you go , pay per session or groups of sessions , not a " flat fee " . yes you can do some OB , basic grip work, and socialization work yourself, but eventually you are going to need 2 experienced people helper/decoy. There is a reason good PPD ( if you can find one ) arent cheap. It takes alot of work to get a "mature " dog there.

I've learnt that there is a difference between going to see people who give you ideas and advice (even if it's very good advice) and going to see a TRAINER several times a week who works with your dog and tells you "OK I'm seeing your dog do this, we need the dog to do this, this is why the dog is doing this, so this is why I want the dog to do this, so next time you come out lets do this". I really like working with the trainer who's working Cujo right now, since Sunday alone he's made alotta progress. Find someone who can teach you step by step and you will achieve far better results than putzing around on your own or with a family member. The trainer can assign you homework of what to do between sessions to build the dog, often this is stuff you won't think of on your own.

Hmmm, I'm not dense, I swear <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />, but I am still a tad unsure! So basically, if my dog's in prey, it's OK to use self/family member?

The difficulty I think will be in finding a real professional. It turns out that the man I went to yesterday for a consultation to have him assess my dog comes with a reputation. He's apparently very, very quick to put a dog into fight/defense and this is not what I want. I learned this AFTER I went to him.

That aside, it looks like I need to purchase Drive, Focus & Grip tape.

Thanks to all.

If you don't already have the drive,focus & grip tape already to work from....what in the world are you using as a guide for the bite work, & family help sleeve work that you are proposing to do? ...an obedience tape?! or the puppy bite work or raising a working puppy tapes at least? If these are the ones that you are using the you need to take a BIG step back & do allot of drive building/tug work before you are ready for any decoy or PPD training. Get the drive & focus tape & spend allot of time on this training. It is part of the foundation work that you need to do with a dog that you want to do bite work with. You need to slow down before you ruin your dog for good. You don't do this work in a couple of weeks or even months time & then start Protection work. Bad idea. Before you start fooling around with your dog with sleeves etc. you better be really sure that you can tell when you dog is totally in prey or you will really be biting off more than you can chew for both you & your dog. When the time comes to start your dog on sleeve work, again, do your research before you pick someone to work with. As was mentioned,find a club to work with & see what it takes for both the dog genitically & training wise to be doing bite work, by seeing the other working dogs in the club & what kind of training guidance you need to be training this type of work. JMO Good luck with your dog. If you can't find the proper club or trainer then maybe you might consider persuing AKC titles instead.

Judy no ones think you are dense. I would start with the book " Der Schutzhund " by Helmut Raiser, Ed sells it. Read the articles on the " Schutzhund Village " written by Armin Winkler. Use the search function on here and scoure the old threads in the police and personal protection section. It is alot more complicated than if your dog is in prey drive using family members for bite work <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />