Hi everyone,

I'm student at University of Arizona and I major in chemistry. I'm taking Biochemistry 460 at the UA. I feel like I want to share some critical informations from my professor with everyone who have dogs.

In the class, the professor was talking about five young kids who swallowed antifreeze (the proper name for this is ethylene glycol). They did this on purpose to get high. One out of five kids survived . A student who studies MA from Boston University was doing an internship at the hospital. She wondered why he was the only person who survived so she decided to collect some informations from him.

She asked him if he drink less than four others and he said no. He and four others drank about the same. Actually, he told her that he had 1 quart of Scotch before he drank the ethylene glycol. What was happen was that the alcohol in scotch was becoming "competitive inhibition" and the ethylene glycol could not attach with an enzyme. So evenuntally ethylene glycol became "waste." Indeed, very lucky for him to survive.

Dr Ziegler said today many of emts have a small emergency kit that carries everclear liquior. Because everclear is a terrfic inhibitor, it can save lives with specific amount. I don't think I want to explain all boring detials about enzymes inhibitors and kinetics.

If dogs have been swallowed by antifreeze (ethylene glycol), they should have some kindds of strong liquiors. Please do not try this at home because we do not know how much doses those dogs need. Too much can kill a dog and it depends on the weight and size.

The reason I share this information, I don't know how many pet owners actually know about this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I've known for years that antifreeze will kill a dog, but didn't know about the alcohol bit. What I would really like to know is...why does a young man with a quart of scotch in him feel the need to drink antifreeze to get high? Just thinking out loud.

Hi Lindsay, I just got done taking a grad class in biochem. I hated every second of it. Bollocks to bichemistry! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyways, we didn't learn about that in my biochem class, but we did learn about something similar in my environmental toxicology class a few semesters ago. With the ethylene glycol, it's similar to drinking methanol (instead of standard ethanol that is in regular alcohol) that will make you go blind. At the hospital, just get them drunk and the same effect of competitive inhibition will get them to metabolize the methanol.

When you get a quart of scotch in you you do stupid things. Heck, the whole point of drinking a quart of scotch is to do stupid things and have an excuse.

OTOH, I'm looking around for a piece of PVC pipe that I can drill a bunch of holes in, stuff it full of rags, soaked with antifreeze, and cap off the ends. Put it in the yard while Jäger's wearing his ecollar and provide him with a negative experience when he bites/licks it. The Vet said that although no amount of antifreeze is good for him, at 85 pounds the amounts he is likely to come in contact with during poison aversion training will not be a problem.

The vet also said that the ethylene glycol based antifreeze is going by the wayside because the hazmat rules make it too costly to get rid of.

Oct 13 1976. One of those dates that will always stick with me.
#1-My oldest daughter's 5th birthday.
#2-I poisoned all three of my dogs with anti-freeze.
I was a big gearhead back then and was always building hotrods, doing engine swaps, etc. My dogs always had access to my garage for security reasons.
Guilt has a way of kicking you in the face even 30yrs later. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

i have had the experience, as a vet tech, of watching a dog die of antifreeze poisoning. it is not at all pretty: the dog was convulsing, in obvious pain (their gut is,literally, killing them), and the owner could not make the decision to euthanize.

finally, (thank god for good vets), the vet had the owner come back to the intensive-care room at the clinic, and simply watch her dog for a few minutes. it was sad, intense, but necessary: the client needed to see what her dog was going thru, with no chance of recovery. we euthanized the poor girl within 20 minutes. and, BTW, i wasn't the only one w/tears. but jeez, that's an ugly painful way to go... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

and OEDbob scott: how's this for owner-guilt: have a rat problem in the barn, have a friend get you rat poison, friend drops it off in the garage, dogs get into it. jam Vit K down their throats, praying the whole time.

BTW, it did work--both of the retards are here to tell about it! wonder about maybe getting REAL rat terrier though! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hi Maren,

I really like the class I'm taking now. It studies all about proteins and metabolism. I think my professor is good at making the class fun and interesting. She uses some good examples from the lectures that apply to our everyday lives. I had no idea something she would say that might save our dogs' lives. I don't know how many veterinrians know about this possible option. Many of my pervious professors are obsessed on kinetics and Enzyme/Substrate reaction. It bores me like hell! I hate doing Michaelis-Menten equation and I never understand why we need them.

After she gave out a lecture on it, I was like geeze! This time, she was using ethylene gylcol as example for kinetics and enzyme inhibitions. Also, we look close on the structure between those two kinds: antizfreeze and ethanol. Both structures are very close to be similar so is methanol.

When the concentration of ethanol or methanol is greater than ethylene glycol, they became "competitive inhibitors." Enzymes are limited to how many substrates they can bind. Not enough enzymes to bind with "ethylene glycol" so they became disposable. Also, timing is very important too. If a dog just consumes ethylene glycol a few minutes ago, he will need the ethanol right away. Maybe double or thriple the amount of ethanol.

It is nice to know that you had some knowledges on this. I was afraid that someone is going to be scornful because I do not have much of evidence to support my claim. I know many biochemists are aware of this, but I've never seen veterinrians say anything about it. I wonder if this has been taught in veterinary schools. I think this is something they need to know.

 Quote:

Oct 13 1976. One of those dates that will always stick with me.
#1-My oldest daughter's 5th birthday.
#2-I poisoned all three of my dogs with anti-freeze.
I was a big gearhead back then and was always building hotrods, doing engine swaps, etc. My dogs always had access to my garage for security reasons.
Guilt has a way of kicking you in the face even 30yrs later. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I am sorry about what happen to your dogs. I'm sure you would do anything to save your dogs. It was an accident and you should not feel too guilty. We are humans and mistakes do happen. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Lindsay, are you pre-vet as well or just into biochemistry? Michaelis-Menten...*shudder* Of course, I do have to know a little about K values and such for my research on environmental endocrine disrupting chemicals. I'm almost done with my masters in biology (done with the classwork, just doing my last experiment, and then gotta write up the thesis) and I'll be sure to mention that to other future vets or the professors when I'm in vet school. You'd be surprised though...even though vets (and doctors) are of course very smart, many forget simple things about nutrition and behavior because that's not the emphasis in vet school. For example, even though many of them have bachelor's degrees in biology, it doesn't occur to some that wolves do not eat corn, wheat, or soy like there is in 90% of commericial dog food. I'm likely going to be a veterinary behaviorist (if I don't do zoo vet med or specialize in surgery), but yeesh, sometimes there is a bit of a lack of common sense in both kinds of doctors, both people and animal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Lindsay, are you pre-vet as well or just into biochemistry? Michaelis-Menten...*shudder* Of course, I do have to know a little about K values and such for my research on environmental endocrine disrupting chemicals. I'm almost done with my masters in biology (done with the classwork, just doing my last experiment, and then gotta write up the thesis) and I'll be sure to mention that to other future vets or the professors when I'm in vet school. You'd be surprised though...even though vets (and doctors) are of course very smart, many forget simple things about nutrition and behavior because that's not the emphasis in vet school. For example, even though many of them have bachelor's degrees in biology, it doesn't occur to some that wolves do not eat corn, wheat, or soy like there is in 90% of commericial dog food. I'm likely going to be a veterinary behaviorist (if I don't do zoo vet med or specialize in surgery), but yeesh, sometimes there is a bit of a lack of common sense in both kinds of doctors, both people and animal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Oh my, geek-oids got loose today!!!!

I have a BS in biochemistry and an MS in chemistry. We won't be hearing from Lindsay much when she takes p-chem. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> (it was not so bad when I took it again in grad school and we had calculators)

Being in the REAL world now, though, I am glad I did not get my PhD. Something strange happens to many people after that that makes them incapable of common sense.