OK, before I begin let me catch you up to what has been going on. I had a malinois who was a great dog but realized I was at fault and I should have been more involved in terms of competing, etc. My original intentions were to make him a perosnal prot. dog but he far surpassed that. I worked him plenty but knew he had more potential so I let a more experienced person take him on. Right now he is working for the police dept. Great. I KNOW he is having a blast. I never had any major probs with the guy other than his drive being through the roof. I had plenty of people that wanted him and he's in the right environment now.

Here are my intentions. I want a personal protection dog but at the same time try to make him a Shutzhund dog. This would teach me alot along the way so I can later be able to work with a dog like the one I had previously. Then when I am ready I will try to shoot for the stars, but for now I need to take baby steps before I continue.

So, here's the deal. I am about to get another this coming Fri. But unlike before, I am waiting and using my best judgement and taking my time. I want the right dog for the right situation.

I know a few people that are heavily involved in the working dog trials, etc and wnat me to start cruising down to their academies bringing my new dog to them and working him out. This time with professionals that will be able to see any mistakes I may be making.




The dog I have settled on was this.
The father is a dutchie and the mother is a mal. The mothers top 1/2 is working, the bottom is not. The dutch top and bottom are working.

So here are the questions for you guys..

I. being ¾ working and ¼ non-working ( ½ dutchie - ½ mal, respectively), is it fair to say the dogs will be of mild drives and be better to work for a Shtz/PPD type of situation?

II. I hear a lot about Dutchies having mals crossed in them already. Most “pure” dutchies aren’t workable. So being that this is a cross, having any sort of AKC or FCI is out of the question. So basically, it would be an unpapered dog?

III. What if this dog turned out to be spectacular. Let’s say I bred her with another top scoring dog. How would the puppies and paerwork fit in at this point? Wouldn’t the dog be considered a mutt?

IV. I also talked to another guy who said most working people don’t care about pedigrees anyhow. Is this true? If so, how can you keep track of who is in where and whatnot and how to plan a breeding?

V. Mals are more senitive than dutchies, ducthies are more sensitive than mals. This is what I keep hearing. I also hear that dutchies are more subdued like a GSD but not as calm, but not as hyper as a Mal. So what’s your take.

VI. Should I just shoot after a mild mal instead that wouldn’t be suitable for police, narco, and tracking work to the point of “working”?

VII. OK, before I wanted the dog with the highest drive as that is what I read just about everywhere. That is the most desirable. But actually having one and working him, I have learned that it takes experience to being able to truly handle one. This is why I was looking for a mild driven dog. Planning ahead and taking pedigrees into consideration and such to find a dog suitable my situation. So am I on the right track?



And thank you guys in advance…

So here are the questions for you guys..

I. being ¾ working and ¼ non-working ( ½ dutchie - ½ mal, respectively), is it fair to say the dogs will be of mild drives and be better to work for a Shtz/PPD type of situation?

Judge the dog on what it brings to the table as an individual. All of what you are saying is hypothetical pedigree reading.

II. I hear a lot about Dutchies having mals crossed in them already. Most “pure” dutchies aren’t workable. So being that this is a cross, having any sort of AKC or FCI is out of the question. So basically, it would be an unpapered dog?

True. Your pup will be an unregistered dog. As you know, unregistered/unpapered does not necessarily mean of unknown origin, just that it is not recognized by the FCI or AKC. See II. See II.

III. What if this dog turned out to be spectacular. Let’s say I bred her with another top scoring dog. How would the puppies and paerwork fit in at this point? Wouldn’t the dog be considered a mutt?


See II.

IV. I also talked to another guy who said most working people don’t care about pedigrees anyhow. Is this true? If so, how can you keep track of who is in where and whatnot and how to plan a breeding?

This can be true, depends on the person. A lot of people in SchH are hung up on pedigrees in a big way. This is not a bad thing, its just the norm. In some of the ringsports, papers are not a big topic of conversation. The majority of Police K9 & Military K9 handlers couldn’t care less about papers.

V. Mals are more senitive than dutchies, ducthies are more sensitive than mals. This is what I keep hearing. I also hear that dutchies are more subdued like a GSD but not as calm, but not as hyper as a Mal. So what’s your take.

Again, depends largely on the individual dog. Hard to make generalizations, especially in some of the KNPV lined dogs where xHH & xMH are often interbred.

VI. Should I just shoot after a mild mal instead that wouldn’t be suitable for police, narco, and tracking work to the point of “working”?

VII. OK, before I wanted the dog with the highest drive as that is what I read just about everywhere. That is the most desirable. But actually having one and working him, I have learned that it takes experience to being able to truly handle one. This is why I was looking for a mild driven dog. Planning ahead and taking pedigrees into consideration and such to find a dog suitable my situation. So am I on the right track?

I don’t know if I’d go as far as you’re describing, unless you really just had a hard time handling and dealing with your previous dog. I’d much rather have a dog that was a little too much, than not quite enough. Look at the individual pup and evaluate it as best you can, then take into consideration the parents and the immediate ancestors to the planned pup (assuming you have 1st or trusted 2nd hand info on these dogs).

Just curious--why don't you consider a working-line German Shepherd dog?

Christine,

I don't know Aarons reasons for picking a Mal or brindle Mal
(Dutchie :-) over a GSD
IMHO Mals are a lot healthier (very little hip dysplasia)
have more drive (if you can channel it) and are much cheaper
than working line GSD's
Of course my main breed are Dobermanns so what do I know?
:-0

Thomas, the reason I am asking is because he seems so concerned about getting a low-drive Mal, or at least a Mal he can handle. Wouldn't it be easier to find a dog he's looking for from GSDs? Working stock is still available, albeit a bit harder to find, and yes they're a bit more expensive, but he DID have a good Mal before, and look what happened. I just think it's kind of redundant to want a Mal, and then to want a *low* drive Mal because he couldn't handle the first one.

It's sort of like wanting a show Shepherd cause you can't handle a working line. Well, not quite, but you know what I mean. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've always wondered about the 'healthier' thing--I read elsewhere on this board, Kevin Sheldahl's post I believe, wherein he says that German Shepherds only have more 'known' diseases which are tested for. It doesn't necessarily mean Mals are healthier. Of course, we're talking about working stock right? <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

HI Kristine,
There aren't a whole lot of low drive Mals or Dutchies that I've ever seen :-)

you wrote:

I've always wondered about the 'healthier' thing--I read elsewhere on this board, Kevin Sheldahl's post I believe, wherein he says that German Shepherds only have more 'known' diseases which are tested for. It doesn't necessarily mean Mals are healthier. Of course, we're talking about working stock right?

>I somewhat agree with you and Kevin. The problem with
>GSD's is they're too popular. Too many people that think
>the only prerequiste to be a breeder is owning (or having
>access to) a male and a female :-( The working Dobermann
>still haven't recovered from their "popularity" with all
>the Doberman Gang movies in the 1980's The same thing
>happened with the Rottwieller? I think the Mals and
>Dutchies WERE healthier. That is changing now. Mals are
>too popular. Everybody and his Uncle wants one now :-(

Find a good breeder with lots of handling/training experience and the crapshoot of finding the right puppy to fit your needs will be greatly improved. Since you are getting your puppy this Friday hopefully this is what you have done. When you own a dog that you really,really like with adequate drive for what you are trying to accomplish I'm not sure the papers/bloodlines really matter. A "good dog" is a "good dog",even if his only job is riding on your shoulder. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I have never owned a Dutchie but, can say with confidence that with every animal I have ever owned there has been a diverse variation of temperment within the same breed.You have to be brutely honest with yourself about what your wants, wishes, needs and capabilities are.....

Glad you did the "right" thing with your first Mal. Glad he likes his new job!!!

Best of luck with your new dog,
Debbie

 Quote:

Just curious--why don't you consider a working-line German Shepherd dog?

No interest. There is a kennel down the way about 10min from me that has 3 litters down. All the ped's on all of the dogs are Shtz I, II, or III. Not one dog is NOT titled in the ped.

Just not something I am after.

 Quote:

Christine,

I don't know Aarons reasons for picking a Mal or brindle Mal
(Dutchie :-) over a GSD
IMHO Mals are a lot healthier (very little hip dysplasia)
have more drive (if you can channel it) and are much cheaper
than working line GSD's
Of course my main breed are Dobermanns so what do I know?
:-0

I actually like dobies but I hear from ALL SORTS of wokring facilities that dobies are just too nervy, hard to get out of a mode, and are very skittish in offensive situations. To find a good one is almost unheard of. Have you dealt with or heard of these accusations floating around to the various kennels?

 Quote:

Thomas, the reason I am asking is because he seems so concerned about getting a low-drive Mal, or at least a Mal he can handle. Wouldn't it be easier to find a dog he's looking for from GSDs? Working stock is still available, albeit a bit harder to find, and yes they're a bit more expensive, but he DID have a good Mal before, and look what happened. I just think it's kind of redundant to want a Mal, and then to want a *low* drive Mal because he couldn't handle the first one.

It's sort of like wanting a show Shepherd cause you can't handle a working line. Well, not quite, but you know what I mean. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've always wondered about the 'healthier' thing--I read elsewhere on this board, Kevin Sheldahl's post I believe, wherein he says that German Shepherds only have more 'known' diseases which are tested for. It doesn't necessarily mean Mals are healthier. Of course, we're talking about working stock right? <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, from what i now understand you can get whatever drive out of any of the litters from any working dog.

Its hard to say.

I am going to see for myself and use their recommendations.