Hi all,

Looking for a few opinions here. I have a 3 1/2 month old Czech/DDR male that is showing really nice prey drive, he goes after everything that moves and hangs on! I was wondering at what age do you start with the out command? I don't want to dampen his bite any. Also, what method do you folks use to begin this? With my other dog I used another toy as a distraction while giving the aus, worked for her, this one just wants both toys!! Any ideas would be welcome. Thanks.

OthosMom

I start at 8 weeks old. Try food. That works with high food drive dogs. Otherwise he can't fit both toys in his mouth so he must drop one to get the other.

Vince,others,

You and the originator are talking about a young puppy. Our 10 month male GSD has been biting the sleeve very well (very hard, driving, full bite - according to our trainer) for over two months.

Although we have taught him the aus with play toys, our trainer is suggesting that we do not confuse the dog with the aus during bitework for another month or two. He feels that it is important to firmly develop the bite confidence in many situations and conditions before entering the out.

Is this consistent with what you are saying above or should we be starting the out earlier or later?

Two basic reasons:

1) Your trainer is now working on drive building and bite development. The out is an obedience exercise which must be proofed with compulsion. It is counter productive to work on an obedience exercise and a drive building one simultaneously.

2) A good portion of mouthy grips comes from anticipation of the out. He wants to finish grip work before this can occur.

Ps. This does not mean that I agree with this training or that both cannot be trained successfully together. But the post only asked why so I gave the two most prominent reasons. There are more.

There is a way to train the Pust (for all you German commandos that is Czech for the out- he he) that does not diminish drive. Rather than begining the out as a forced obedience action, you forcing the dog to drop the sleeve(with a hard ass leash correction), you can use the dogs own desire to continue the fight to drop the sleeve.

If your dog is at the point where he is determined to bite and you have been doing "out" work with toys. (By freezing movement and commanding "out" then when the dog drops you immediatly reward with continued play.) Then you can teach the out using a two sleeve method, or a tie out method.

If anybody wants to learn how send me a private message.

Oh no you don't!!

POST IT, so that we can all critique your technique!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Jason:

I do not have a technique. If I did you would be at vin.com instead of here. LOL. But if you mean whose technique do I like the best. VanCamp eluded to a good one. It is used primarily for the call back but it works on the out. In the call back the dog learns the faster you get back to me the faster you get a bite. Translates to the faster you out the faster you get to fight. Works good on dogs with high fight drive but not as well with prey driven dogs who do not want to fight but to have there prey. Different drive satisfaction motivators.

Vince,

VanCamp knows I'm just messin with him.

I heard something similar the other day. Double decoys and centerline drills were mentioned.

Ok Jason, you want the heat baby. Can you handle it? Hope so, cuz' I'm gonna give it to you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> he, he, eh. . .


This is how I learned how to do it.

1) The out should be introduced to the dog in a play setting. You should simulate protection while you play with a tug. Then command out and freeze. Don't let the toy be moved. When the dog releases it is play time again.

2) Now when you have a good dog bitting with power and desire you can apply what he has already learned in play.

3) Start by working the dog on a back tie. Then give Fido a few bites to get things rockin. Helper is slipping the sleeve every time. Benji carries and you end him in a down. Now the helper puts on another sleeve. When that happens give the out command. (he will see the other sleeve on the bad guy) As soon as Fido releases the first sleeve the helper starts moving and you reward him with a bite on the helper. Repeat as necessary. (until Rex understands that as soooon as he releases the first sleeve, the helper wil start fighting and he can bite the second one.

4) Next you go to outing Spot off the helper. Your helper will wear a sleeve on each arm. You start everything just like normal with a bite and fight. Then the helper stops all movement and holds the sleeve tight in front of him. If Fido drops at this point give out command as soon as you see him do it. If not the helper needs to brace and hold on. When the dog starts to loosen the grip, gets fidgitty, or confused thats when you give the out command. Repeat "out" if necessary. Again as soon as the dog releases the helper makes the other sleeve alive and gives a bite on that one. This waiting game may take some time. Absolutly no baiting or provoking the dog while he is on the first sleeve. This only works because the dog wants to hit the target that is going to give him that reward of fighting back/moving. Also for this to work well you always give a more heavy fight on the second sleeve. Don't get to wild on the first sleeve/bite it will be counter productive. Do this until the dog is outing consistantly and you are rewarding in the end with slipping the sleeve.

5) The next progression is to only use one sleeve. Same idea- the helper stops fighting and braces the sleeve with NO further stimulation. Then you come in close and give the out. As soon as Rex releases you give a very rewarding re-bite that ends with the helper slipping the sleeve and the dog winning.

6) Now if your dog is not outing off the single sleeve you can go to the end of your tie off and try again. Your problem, most likely, is that the dog is getting a little stimulation from shaking the sleeve on his own or just bitting and pulling it. Now you give him the bite at the very end of the tie out. Then the helper backs off to the extreme length of the dogs tie off in order to hold the dog in one place. Then he immediatly freezes action and braces the sleeve. Now because the dog is tied off he will not be able to keep up the fight because he is somewhat restricted. The helper can get a very good brace that will utterly restrict the sleeve. The dog can't play on his own. (note: do not let the helper try to pull the dog off the sleeve. This is counter productive. You are just using the tie out to restrict movement, not pull the dog off.) The dog that formerly was not outing will now be at the end of his line and on his tippy toes holding the sleeve. This is gonna get old real fast. That is when you give the out command. As soon as he releases, either from boredom or exertion, give the re-bite and make it a good one.

Ok- you can see how this continues. Eventually you will be outing the dog without the tie off and under all kinds of conditions. To proof the dog now you can go to a prong, or e-collar, or whatever.

There is a whole lot more that goes into this but these are the basics. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

VanCamp,

You hit the nail on the head! My pup is now almost 6 months old, to teach him the out I had started with the double toy distraction, this just produced wild results as he really uses his feet alot to grab and hold on, I tried the food, yes, he does have a high food drive, but the prey drive seems higher, so sometimes it would work and sometimes not, not to mention you'd better be damn quick or I'd get my fingers taken off! The freeze method seems to be the key for this boy, although the first time I tried it , it was quite a lengthy freeze! He is doing much better now. He is now in the latter stages of teething and becoming quite mouthy due to the pain. Is it wise now to back off the tug wars at this point, or will some amount of the pain benefit him in learning to work through it? Thanks.

Deb