one for the experts.
when a dog bites in fight drive, how is the bite? confident, relaxed bite with great intensity and pushing? or does he fight in order to bring the helper down? so in other words does he pull in his bite? and what about growling during a bite, is this a sign of willing to fight the helper?

Each dog is different.

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Therefore, IMO it can only truly be found in an artificial selection..... dogs that would not have been able to breed EXCEPT for the fact that medicine saved them

What in God's name are you talking about?

What Lee is trying to say is that if an animal were natrually able to perform in "fight-drive" then this animal would likely become extinct because defense and prey drives are designed (so to speak) to preserve a species. He is saying that prey and defense are natural instincts and fight drive is not, therefore Lee termed it an "artificial drive". In addition if it were not for veterinary science there would also be far fewer animals available for breeding of any kind. Personally I found the post to be good food for thought.

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What Lee is trying to say is that if an animal were natrually able to perform in "fight-drive" then this animal would likely become extinct because defense and prey drives are designed (so to speak) to preserve a species.

One thing doesn't follow the other. Nearly everything we see in pure-bred dogs doesn't lend itself to surviving without human assistance. Extinction, if we're talking about natural selection, is a non-issue. There's nothing natural about the dog selection humans make.

Veterinary science (as we know it) has nearly nothing to do with preserving the working stock we know today. Selective breeding, sure. Obviously.

Veterinary science--->dogs with fight drive? Maybe I'm still missing something.

Selective breeding-----> Every given domestic dog trait. Obviously.

And then something about gladiator breeds?

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Personally I found the post to be good food for thought.

Me too!


I have mixed opinion about this concept of fight drive being “artificial,” but I think I can explain what he meant. Correct me if I am wrong Lee, but the way he is describing it is that although there are few/no dog breeds left today that are as nature would have naturally selected them, but all breeds today display one or more “natural” traits that would be seen in wild canines.

Some breeds have been selected to have prey drive and in different degrees and control. Human selection. Some breeds have been selected for defense i.e. watch dogs of the barking variety. Human selection. Some breeds have been selected to have a mix of both of these, but this is to the specifications of the humans and certainly not nature.

Where Lee’s theory of fight drive stems is that if wild canines had had it as a trait, then they would have killed one another off as they came into contact with each other, and only with the advent of human selection are we able to prevent/stop this. Not necessarily veterinary science, but human intervention in the process. But then we have bred many traits that would not have existed in wild canines.

Breeds that were bred for fighting were selectively bred for fighting and that desire to fight and kill, hence his comment of the gladiator breeds. APBT are an example of a breed that was bred to fight other dogs, and there are larger mastiff breeds that were bred for fighting prisoners and wild animals for entertainment. As this is not in a form of entertainment any longer, most don’t exist or have been re-selectively bred to have less of this drive. As many show GSD’s are bred to have little to no prey.

Some of the problems that I see in the theory are that I feel that there are situations where wild canines display this trait. I can imagine situations where a canine will aggressively and forwardly attempt to gain territory. Obviously the defending canine is behaving in defense, but what about the aggressor? I don’t think that animal can be acting in prey but in fight. I don’t know, this is just one off the top of my head.

If this is the case then it is not so much an invented drive, but one that is in existence, just very controlled. All drives can and do exist in a controlled state. They lay there quietly just waiting for the need. We have just allowed fight to become more prominent in some breeds. Just as we have bred prey or defense to be more or less prominent in others.

I am no Expert But have watched a lot of Dogs perform in Protection at least three times a week for the last 10 months, As far as i am concerened a Dog has the Drive for it or he does not, then even if they have the Drive Some Dogs Bite Down harder on the sleeve and get it right back in the jaws,
and to be honest the only ones who can really see is the Pakwerker and the Judge very close by. Like all things some Dogs must have a Stronger Bite than others plus of course the Dog has to meet the sleeve right
It seems to me that the Dog Focuces on the Sleeve that is what he is aiming to get hold of, no one will know if he is trying to bring the Pakwerker down
As far as Growling when hold of the Sleeve, My Fred does not so much growl but you can here a soft rumbling coming from the back of his throat, or nose but it is there

I can only respond to what Lee said, not what someone else thinks he was trying to say.

Though, having reviewed totality of his posts over the past two years, there will be no more responses, as this is clearly a high-profile venue he's exploiting to plug his kennel. This time around it's just a bit more implicit. That's brass tacks.

 Quote: Steven Lepic

I can only respond to what Lee said, not what someone else thinks he was trying to say.

But you did... you asked for an interpretation of a post and that was offered.

Nadir,

I'm in the same boat as you; trying to learn about this drive. The first thing I learned is that it's difficult to classify in terms of wording or a checklist of behaviors to look for. There are some key things that seem to either be or not be a part of the package when a dog is fighting in fight-drive, though. There's not many threads in the Fight Drive section but some of the questions that you are asking have some information there that could help. Growling though, since you mentioned that specifically, is a show of avoidance.