hi to all...I am new to this board,just found it and seems like it's a great place. So,here is another housebreaking dilema??? My lab Bailey, is 8 mos. old and has been crated since she was brought home at 9 weeks old. No real issues, with being crated. The problem is peeing/pooping in her crate! I have tried every thing I can think of and researched...now I am at the end of my rope

She still goes indiscriminately in her crate, just when I think she's got it,oops another pee or poop! Here's a brief list of the tried efforts--limited h2o; walks (long) before going in her room, clean her kennel with vinegar/nature's wonder, checked with vet for UTI, etc.,

I have had many other pups and it seemed all were trained by 6 mos. at the latest...all crate trained. She stays in her kennel, while I'm at work for approx 4 1/2 hrs, come home lunch(she usually is napping and then goes potty) most of the time she's dry. Then at nite she seldom goes potty in her crate--it's either in the afternoon, early evening or if I am home, then whenever, no matter if she just went out and pee'd an hour before????

I'm sorry this is so long, but can anyone give any thoughts suggestions on training Bailey to "hold it" longer--I know she should be getting the idea by now <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

thanks, b

Hi Becky-
My first thought is now large is her crate? Can she roam around like its a condo in there? If its too large, meaning she can get away from her mess, then its allowing her to "get away" from it. I would make her crate large enough for her to lay down, stand up and turn around. No bigger.
Most dogs will not soil in the area where they sleep in, if they can help it.........
Good luck!

 Quote:

Hi Becky-
My first thought is now large is her crate? Can she roam around like its a condo in there? If its too large, meaning she can get away from her mess, then its allowing her to "get away" from it. I would make her crate large enough for her to lay down, stand up and turn around. No bigger.
Most dogs will not soil in the area where they sleep in, if they can help it.........
Good luck!

Good thought! Also, can you get someone to let her out and walk her halfway through the 4.5-hour-stretch for a while? You don't want her to be trained to go in her crate.

I've had a couple EXTREMELY dominant dogs that although housebroken would urinate and/or defecate in their crates. I felt it was more about an unknown pecking order.
Do you have more than one dog?

My other suggestion would be to do some blood and urine work at the Vet to see if there are any complicating health problems. If there is no indicator of a health problem, try switching her to a hypo-allergenic food.

Switching her to a smaller crate may or may not help. But I would try this too, after the trip to the vet and after the change of diet. With these dogs I found it easier to bed them in their crate on hay or shavings. Less mess, easier to clean, dog stays clean! It seemed the less I worried about it, the less of an issue it became.

 Quote:

I've had a couple EXTREMELY dominant dogs that although housebroken would urinate and/or defecate in their crates. I felt it was more about an unknown pecking order.
Do you have more than one dog?

My other suggestion would be to do some blood and urine work at the Vet to see if there are any complicating health problems. If there is no indicator of a health problem, try switching her to a hypo-allergenic food.

Switching her to a smaller crate may or may not help. But I would try this too, after the trip to the vet and after the change of diet. With these dogs I found it easier to bed them in their crate on hay or shavings. Less mess, easier to clean, dog stays clean! It seemed the less I worried about it, the less of an issue it became.

You picked up on something I completely missed, Scott....... this: QUOTE: it's either in the afternoon, early evening or if I am home, then whenever END QUOTE

Are you saying, Becky, that the dog does this mostly when you are present? If you are, that seems to be a much different issue from crate size or length of time to hold it in.

Food sensitivities and food allergies (IMO) are fairly unlikely to cause both bladder and bowel incontinence. Hypoallergenic foods are one of two types: either highly treated (denatured) foods that have had the proteins from (usually) a protein grain treated to the point that the antigens are removed, or "novel" foods, which simply means limited ingredients which the dog has never eaten (novel to that dog). Lamb, of course, left that list long ago because so many dogs have now eaten it in commercial foods. Venison, buffalo, rabbit, etc., remain likely as novel protein sources. (Food allergies develop with repeated exposure, and are generally to a protein.)

My point here is that I'd hesitate to make the switch to a hypoallergenic food based on nothing but bladder and bowel challenges, because neither an elimination diet nor a true hypoallergenic food is a casual change, and because the most common symptoms of actual food allergies are not these. Most common is atopic dermatitis.

Last, although it has been said many times here, it bears repeating: allergies in dogs are far and away most often to fleas, then to environmental/inhalant allergens, and finally (and way behind) to food ingredients.

I do believe that an excellent diet (which to me is not most commercial foods) directly helps support the immune system (and allergies are an immune system thing).

So coming at this from the viewpoint of someone who has had a lot more experience with canine allergies than I ever wanted to, I'd say that while you might want to try a hypoallergenic food, I wouldn't make that a permanent change based on these not-very-allergic-sounding symptoms, expecially at this age. Even a food sensitivity would be not very likely to cause both bowel *and* bladder problems. Not impossible -- but not my first guess.

I know I'm hijacking a little, and I apologize. Back to crate-training issues! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> When you checked for a UTI, were blood tests and urinalyses done (as Scott suggests)?

Scott, if you have a chance, I am very interested in learning more about dominant dogs and housebreaking challenges. I haven't encountered this, but it makes sense to me that extremely dominant dogs might be harder to train sometimes.

Scott-
I, too, would be intrested in hearing about the dominant dog issues with crate training. As Connie said it makes sense and I (also) havent had much experience with that....
If we dont want to "hijack" the thread, perhaps you could pm me?
Connie, I think the Op said they had their pup vet checked when this all started? or did i read/remember it wrong?? I would assume that would inclue a U/A and fecal, too. But we know what happens when we ASS-U-ME! LOL
Thanks,
Bobbi-jo

Scott,
Also interested in reading about your experiences. Please, continue. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I could be misunderstanding the amount of time she spends in the crate, but it sounds like Bailey is spending most of the day, evening and night in the crate. You also mentioned that she urinates in the crate when you're home. My question at this point would be, if she spends mornings and afternoons in the crate, then evenings when you're home (and at night too), why isn't she with you instead of being confined to the crate when you're home? At 8 months old she needs more exercise, a lot more, than it seems you're giving her. She also needs more time with you yourself. She could just be stressed with so much crate time, not spending enough free time playing and training with you.

Have been going through almost the same thing with my 4.5 month puppy. She is fine at night, fine in morning, but when I go to leave back to work she pees in her crate along with LOTS of very loud upset noise. This weekend I bought her a kong and stuffed it with treats- then left for a short time. I came home to 1) a clean crate 2) a dog still working the kong, and 3) a dog who ran right back into the crate after I let her out as she wanted that kong again.
Try this <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Julie