Last month I purchased a ESS-field bred, male 8 wks, he is going to be trained for obedience and agility. He is smart-so far he is already potty trained, kennel trained, knows sit and down for commands and working on heel, which is tough cause he has TONS of energy. I also have a Papillion, male, intact, 2yrs old (4.5lbs)-I have no desire to neuter either dogs. They get along mediocre and the Pap tolerates him but doesn’t enjoy the puppy side of the ESS trying to rough house etc. The major problem we are having is that sometimes the ESS will decide to drag the Pap around the kitchen by his tail, we have tried snapping a sharp NO to get him to stop, loud noises (he isn’t afraid of anything that we have found yet) and we even a training spray but nothing is working, the only other remedy I can think of is to add another hour walk to the schedule, he gets one at night, but add another one in the morning or to put a prong collar or an E-collar on him and give him a good correction for this-but I am afraid at 3 months a prong and an E-collar may be a little early for him, especially when he is on the softer side. I know this is a puppy thing-but there is a good 16lb-weight difference between them and I don’t want the Pap to get hurt and I don’t want this to continue, does anyone have any other ideas? Thanks! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Read this:

http://www.leerburg.com/articles.htm#workpup

Your have an owner/management problem, not a dog/puppy problem <:-(

Dee Dee

ESS are prone to an aggression problem called Rage Syndrome. All correction of an ESS should be carefully considered by their owners before enacting them. I believe that most ESS suffer from this condition to some degree or other. Rage Syndrome seems to develop as ESS mature. The many cases of Rage Syndrome that I have worked with all have had two common denominators; they had no food drive, through over feeding, and their obedience had been forced, there was not enough bribery and play incorporated in their education.

This style of training seems to consistently create a grumping, middle aged dog that could bite anyone at any time and afterwards willing to defend his right to do so! This is not to say that all ESS will arrive here. I believe it because of the many experienced ESS enthusiasts that rally to this breed that we see excellent examples of what an ESS can be both in the home and in the field.

Be careful to remain safe in your correction of your ESS. I would recommend the use of throwing chains over E collar at this young stage. I would not recommend the use of electrics on such a young ESS pup, especially since there is the possibility that the use of the electrics might escalate the behavior. In other words the ESS in correction may blame the PAP for his discomfort (shock) and escalate his behavior, becoming more aggressive towards the PAP.

With the use of throwing chains (don’t let the pup see you throw, don’t pick up in front of him), the pup has the chains, which they can visibly see lying on the floor after the correction, to blame. It is obvious it was not the PAP it was those things; what are those things, where did they come from, hey they seem to arrive when I try to pick up the PAP,
maybe I shouldn’t do that, mom did you see what happened over there! Keep using the chains until all you have to do is rattle the chains behind your back and the ESS moves away from the PAP and to the safety of your side.

Just a suggestion, it may work for you.



Ed's comments edited into this post

Scott - this is not RAGE SYNDROM in this pup. I will 100% guarantee this. It's prey drive. RAGE is a very rare thing and your not going to see it manifest itself in the form of playing tug with another dogs tail. So its important that readers understand this.

 Quote:

.... sometimes the ESS will decide to drag the Pap around the kitchen by his tail, ....... I don’t want the Pap to get hurt and I don’t want this to continue, does anyone have any other ideas? Thanks! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes..... any reason they aren't separated at all times when you are not right there with the pup under control? That would be step one for me. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Have you looked in the "raising multiple Dogs" section of this site???
I am sure you'll get alot of excellent information in that area.

But i do agree with Connie, the dogs should never be left alone together without you being close enough to keep an eye on the pup. How about keeping the pup tethered to you at all times inside so that you can be close enough to correct the pup if he tries to grap the Pap by the tail. If you have him right by you, you'll be able to see him go to grab it and correct then, instead of when he already has the tail in his mouth. After the correction, give him something else to chew on...direct his attention onto something that is ok for him to play with. But keep that chew toy in reserve for just that situation...that way it will be something he'll want to chew on as its not something readily available to him at all times.
Just a thought.

Thank you all for the replies. John, so far my training has been one of a very gentle approach, using food, toys and affection for rewards for doing commands. I have read mixed reviews of the Rage Syndrome to the point of some saying it doesn’t exist. Quite mind boggling to say the least, and something I am not going to leave up to chance. Every other puppy issue is corrected with a sharp NO and he respects and listens and this is the ONLY issue that we are having that we can not him to stop, right now that is. These episodes also only rear their ugly heads when the ESS is bored or tired, and sometimes night. One thing I need to stop then is allowing the ESS to have full run of the kitchen and living room (we haven’t had any accidents since two weeks after getting him), I have an open concept home, but if I get cooking or doing something else that is his window of opportunity. I will try tethering him to me, I think this will be most beneficial. I personally don’t see the chains working because we have tried a can full of pennies and tossing on the ground in the same fashion and he did nothing more then run over waging his tail and try to take off with the can, but I will give them a try. Any other ideas please do not hesitate to shoot them my way. This is my first time of having a multi-all male dog household, so I don't want to screw anything up, and hopefully any damage that has been done already can be undone <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

John, what the heck is rage syndrome? LOL, Nevermind, i know what it is, my female suffers from it, except in my house we call it RDS (retarded dog syndrome) <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> To the op, keep a leash on the pup and don't let it mess with the little dog until it knows what "no" means, also don't let the little dog mess with the pup either. I've introduced a couple of new dogs in my house with a minimum amount of trouble by using the crate and a leash and a watchful eye, controlling everything the pup does till it learns it's manners, hopefully your dog doesn't suffer from the dreaded RDS, good luck,
AL

DeeDee, "throwing chains" (actually choke chains) are popular among European trainers and not merely used to make noise like coin cans. It's my understanding that they actually make contact with the dog's bottom (in a "snappy way") and are more of a correction than a startle response. Scott can correct me if I am wrong about the application he suggested.

Shake can is not as effective as throwing chains. The can will do more damage to your floors as well. In the long run the pup realizes that it's just you with the can and they're not worried about you. The fact that the dog picked up the can and made a game of it shows that you have a very low stress dog! Most of my labs would have behaved exactly the same way!

However I think I heard you say that your ESS did stop dragging the PAP around and ran of with the can. Mission accomplished. You did distract, stop the ESS. Throwing chains pre date the use of electric collars. They were used, especially with hunting dogs. The trick is to never let the dog see you throw, and never let the dog see you them pick up. We want the dog to choose to modify their behavior. Your use of the word “NO” will probably get you in trouble with this dog. He is so low stress, that “NO” is only going to identify to him what issues to argue with you about

I use dollar store choke chains, you'll need a few, maybe 10?
Timing is everything, as in all aspects of training, this lesson is the timing of correction. When the dog is in the act, the chains start flying, you don’t have to hit the dog, they just have to be landing around him or bouncing of the cupboard door, don't let the dog see you throw, stop throwing when the ESS leaves the PAP alone, don’t pick up in front of the dogs. Act like you have no idea what just happened. Watch your ESS choose to change his behavior, not because you said “NO’, but because he decided it is in his best interest. You want this exercise to evolve to the point where you do not have to throw the chains, but just the sound of them from behind your back or in your pocket will stop your dog and they will worry to you because you are safe. Chains teach a dog to stop and come.

Tying your ESS pup, or crating is a good way to avoid this negative, dangerous inter action. Your obedience issue is that your ESS and most likely your PAP cannot wait at a location for any great length of time. That’s what my mother taught my brother and I, we both had assigned seating at the kitchen table and we had to wait for permission to leave, didn’t you? When tying, it is really good advise to never leave the room, not even for a second.

How safe are you when you firmly stating “NO”, shaking your finger while approaching your dog, this is only pushing the dog into defense. Dose your dog come to you or does he walk away. This the same tone you will use later in life when you are desperately calling him to come when he is in danger, loose in the mall parking lot, he escaped out the car door, here comes two Rottweilers, no owners in sight, make sure your ESS knows that when he hears that tone he knows it’s safest to move towards you.

I differ greatly with your opinion with regards to rage syndrome, I have seen thousands of mild to extreme cases, it is very real! Extreme cases reveal themselves as early as 4 to 6 months of age, most complaints are from owners whose dog are now approx 2 to 3 years of age. I do believe that rage syndrome evolves from a certain style of handling, a handling style that seems common to pet owners.

I would strongly recommend that you find a local trainer who is not just versed in, but considered an expert in clicker training. You should also incorporate play training into your training regiment, teach them how to play and the limits of play. These two new subjects should be added to your educational program.

Maybe you misunderstood me, I am saying that because of these mix messages about rage syndrome that I have read, I am not taking any chances-meaning I will watch for it, do everything in my power to avoid it through the proper training and education. Making sure to nip things in the butt before they get out of hand. Currently Timber, the ESS is VERY good about coming when ever called, and when given a sharp no, he still comes head low and take low-he does not run, or try to hide, this is exactly what I want to avoid, a flee response when in trouble. I will definately try the chain idea. If you have any additional information on rage syndrome I would greatly appreciate seeing it, please feel free to P.M. me, also if you have any other training tips or corrections tips please do not hesitate to include those either.