As some of you who having been helping know, my dog and I are in the beginning to middle stages of figuring out if he has a food allergy. BTW, Cindy Easton Rhodes, you have been and continue to be invaluable and I wanted to "publicly" thank you <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> !

But so that I don't monopolize her time or Connie Sutherland's (another huge, huge help), I thought I'd post my one question here and see what I get back...

Dog on raw chicken diet for allergy investigative reasons but he really, really doesn't like it. Will eat very little of it (has been eating it for just about 9 days now) and is eating like 2 wings a day! Not enough for an 80 lb. dog. So due to this I am wanting to experiment giving him the same thing - chicken WITH the bone but - put it on the grill for 1 minute each side. No more than that. I tried it last night and he loved it. It was in my opinion completely raw except for some spots on the very outside where the color changed slightly due to the heat.

My question...is this safe? I know you can't give a dog a cooked bone but would any of you consider that cooked? It was a pretty hefty chicken thigh and the fire of the grill was on high so it was on no more than 1 minute per side. Do the bones become dangerous the second the food hits the heat? Given the small amount of food available to choose from for him , I'd love to continue to use this method since he seems to love it but am I taking a big risk or not hurting him at all <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ?

Two things I've learned:
1. The dog won't starve himself;
BUT I do understand not wanting to give the dog food he obviously hates! I really do!

2. All dogs I have ever met like ground everything.


P.S. Weight-bearing bones aren't the best choice (chicken thighs) because of the thickness and hardness of the bones and the length of time it takes to digest them. I have read that wolves, in fact, will be more likely to leave the thigh bones (not the meat) of a kill than any other bones besides the skull.

Raw backs and necks: perfect, with soft bones and a great meat-to-bone ratio.

Cooking: I get your idea 100%, but I wouldn't feed even slightly cooked bones.

Others will weigh in, I feel sure! But my natural food store will grind the back end of the fowl for me when I buy whole chickens. At that time, I have him throw in the 5 or 10% organ meat that I feed, since there are dogs who aren't fond of that either.

One of my pre-owned GSDs did not like raw chicken. He loved ground chicken (ground bone-in). Of course, by now he'll eat all raw meat and is very happy with it, but there was a transition time when it was just so different from whatever he had been fed before that he refused it.

No more. :>

If you do decide that you have to cook, I'd go with bone powder before I'd risk cooked (even slightly) bones.

Don't know about how much heat would be too much on the bones, but grill heat is VERY high temp...but then cicken leg Qtr bones are thick...my dogs eat them raw all the time with no problems & have for years as a regular part of their raw diets. But I don't think that I would take the chance but that is just me. Could you possibly cut the bone out of the meat & then cook the meat a little & let it cool down & then slip the bone back into the meat just before you fed it, if the dog won't eat the bone alone. Alot of work & a pain, but it might work. Does the dog object to raw meat in general or just the chicken raw meat? Just another thought..I have read that many dogs with allergies, have a problem with chicken as well, you might want to try turkey necks & ground turkey instead. Or some don't do well on any poultry...Cindy might be able to direct you there I think that I remember her saying that she has a dog with allot of allergies & is only on beef for raw feedings. You could try pork also. You also could try feeding Bravo brand (may be others that I have heard about but don't have 1st hand use & info about) raw dog food. It comes in a sausage like plastic casing,frozen & has the meat ground bone & veggies in it already to thaw a serve. Or you can just get the meat. The dog might like that better since it is ground up. Just another thought. You can google their web site & see if there are any distributer in your area. If you are interested, I have a friend that distributes it to the lower Fairfield country Ct (Greenwich) area & that might work for you. I occasionally use it. Good luck.

Anne, good idea about cooking w/o bone and slipping back in and you're right - what a pain! I might have to resort to that. After a lot of info, Cindy guided me onto the chicken to try w/bone, something I had left out previously. He'll eat raw beef but the idea is to give him something he's never had before. Cindy's not convinced it's an allergy but I have to start somewhere. So the chicken is a cheap way to feed him for a short time, eliminating EVERYTHING else. Venison and buffalo is the only other thing he's never had but I can't find it w/bone. So far, the itchy paws are improving on the chicken diet but it's only been 9 days.

Connie, I had read that about the wolves and thigh bones once. Thanks for the reminder. I could go buy a grinder. Connie, is the bone powder something I should consider if we're trying to keep down the consumption of anything extra? I know for health reasons he needs the bones but am I better trying Anne's idea? If it makes no difference, allergy wise, I'd rather sprinkle bone powder. Anne's idea was great but, might be too much work, I don't know.

 Quote:

.....leg Qtr bones are thick...my dogs eat them raw all the time with no problems & have for years as a regular part of their raw diets......

You know, Anne, you're right.

I still think that a steady diet of all weight-bearing bones might not be best because of the time it takes the dog to digest the heavy thigh bones, but I'm re-thinking the grinding of the back end I started doing when my granddog broke a molar on a raw bone.

I tend to overthink and get obsessive. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, not to hijack:

Is a short blast of heat on the outside of the chicken part enough to make the bone unsafe?
was the question here.

Judy, don't know if you read my post after I edited it to add the thought about the Bravo & they have buffalo, Ostrich, rabbit, etc available for purchase. I would be careful about adding bone meal powder..you have to be careful with the bone to meat, ( calcium to phosoherous )(I can't spell today) levels also when feeding raw or you could cause problems for your dog.

Connie, I don't know...but as I stated, I would not take that chance, since grill heat is 500- 800 degrees I believe. Plus the meat is in very close contact with that heat source. That is pretty hot! I also use chicken backs & necks, in my raw diet. But they are not alway easy to get in some areas. I also feed wings some of the time, too. I think that the Bravo if, Judy wants to try it, might be the way to go....allot of choice of meats, ground with bone & the veggies are not ones know to cause any issues & there is not that much of it in the food & are a different combo with each meat choice. Worth looking into. I think.

 Quote:

......you have to be careful with the bone to meat,.....

You do indeed, and the calcium-phosphorous ratio just happens to be perfect in the RMBs of the raw food. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I sure hope I did not sound casual about raw meat with bone powder instead of bones, because it is an exact thing, based on mg. of calcium to pounds of meat.

I just think that for me, if I had to choose between even slight cooking of bone-in meat or cooking of meat and adding bone powder, I'd opt for #2.

I shouldn't have mentioned it; RMBs are by far the best way to go.

I like Bravo & also "Murrays" poultry (no hormones, etc), of course, I am only feeding one dog. If I had a multiple dog family, I would use other sources because I think the cost factor would outweigh the convenience factor. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anne, I swear I thought I was loosing my mind <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. No, I didn't see the end of your post before I posted. Now I have. OK, I'm not doing the bone powder thing, sounds like a problem if I don't do it right.

I can get the chicken backs, necks, hearts, gizzards and livers but he won't eat much. I gave him a neck today and he looked at me like, "Are you kidding me? Again with the raw chicken?"

I never heard of the Bravo stuff. Does anyone have an opinion on the ingredients?