I don't actually want to rekindle that kind of debate. I was just wondering if anyone has any examples of sport dogs that have done true PPD or PSD work, have had real bites, or vice versa (working dogs with sport titles). I know Flinks' Itor is one. A few days ago I met with a group of people who are convinced this isn't possible. I have tried to argue that although sports pattern-train, it will ultimately have very little effect on a dog with a real strong character, and that you can simply not overtrain the sport exercises. I suppose arguments will only get deeper and the only thing I can use are facts to back them up.

Any help, folks?

In Belgium it is custom for the good K9 handlers to perfect their dog in a NVBK club (even one of the judges of the cat 3 trail was is an active K9 handler

So it is possible

Greetings

Johan

There are many police dogs that have sport titles. Can all do it, IMO no takes a special dog. HE can be really great in one but ok in the other (think of it this way you can not be a master chef and a Doctor but you can be a Doctor and enjoy cooking. Same with police dog IMO

Sport is just a bunch of routines, a good dog is a good dog, if you want to take your dogs training beyond sport, but still compete in sport, there's no reason why you have to limit yourself to the routines required for sport. Many police dogs come from sport backgrounds and sport foundations before they are sold to departments.

Here's a kennel that title and work their own dogs on the street. web page

I mentioned the police several times and yet for some reason they kept repeating the "You can't count on those dogs" routine. Then it came to a "You can teach any dog to bite" argument which made no sense from where it stemmed from. I was trying to point out that if you're aware of what you're doing it is possible to crosstrain. It may be necessary to make point sacrifices in order to stop your dog from developing bad habits, but the dog can do both.

What I understand even less is why they think sports training a dog for obedience will ruin the dog even when you train the way they do outside of the field. In-drive, the dog can do fast obedience. Outside of that, the dog can still do reliable obedience.

I suppose it all stems from being told by their trainers what to think, rather than experiencing the training for themselves and seeing how things really work.

Hello
I too agree a sport dog can do real work but in most cases this is not true. In most cases a sport dog can not stand up to real pressure from an attacker and also are trained to be very human friendly and only turn on in a Schutzhund environment ie. bite sleeve in sight. In the case of true working dogs doing sport, most have sport titles also. So to sum up IMHO most sport only dogs can not do real bite work but most police dogs can do sport. It is all in the temperment of the dog. This is just my opinion based on my Sch experience. I will say that most true working dogs do not have as calm and sure grip as sport dogs do. I have seen many officers bring their dogs to the club and when biting the sleeve be slung off when the helper would rotate around. This would naturally prompt the question from the officer. Why do your dogs stay on the sleeve when being slung around and mine does not. Well it's mostly in the genetics and not much in the training. A sport dog remains calm because it's all a game to them and they are in prey drive while a PD is in defensive drive mostly. It's this high defense drive that make the working dog capable of true work and pressure while sport dogs have a higher prey drive while having a lower defensive drive as a rule. Rules as you know are not 100% but true in most cases. Hope that makes sense.
Rick Davis

Look at one of Ed's favorites Natan Busecker Schloss. Nathan could do both real work and sport. If Nathan would have ended up with another owner Nathan might have never worked in either. I believe genetics play a major role but without the proper up-bring and training it won't amount to much.

The question I have is " How many sport dogs if trained from day one started in prey, moved to civil when old enough, work with hidden sleeve or bite suit would be able to do true work?" Most sport dogs I have seen have had little or no training for the real world. They have only been worked to bite a trial sleeve. They have never been worked on different surfaces. They have never been worked with a hidden sleeve or bite suit. They have only been worked to the pattern of sch. I think there are sport dogs who in different hands with more complete training would excel in real work.

I was impressed at the GSDCA-WDA NASS last fall with a dog/handler team who recieved special recognition as both an active police K-9 and Schutzhund competitor. This team also participated in youth demonstrations of Schutzhund type work (OB and PR) to students from Kindergarten through probably 6th grade - the show was hosted at a school ground.

I was impressed by the handler (for both his skill and his personality) and the dog. That was cool.

Beth

 Quote:

I too agree a sport dog can do real work but in most cases this is not true.

I also agree that it is the temperament of the dog that should be the basis...not its training. Many sport dogs are incapable of real work. The question though is, given the right dog and the right handler, can you do both? I suppose with the examples given already, it is difficult to say no. Of course if you do nothing but pattern-train in the hopes of getting perfect points, then your dog will suffer...

Again, I think a lot of the problem stems from the inability of some people to differentiate between the dog itself, the handler, the exercises done in order to achieve a goal, and the goal. That, and the fact that a lot of 'sports-only' people are masquerading their work as 'the real deal'. So it becomes difficult to comprehend that a lot of these supposed 'sport exercises' are just that, exercises. Sport is not real work, but again sport and real work do not cancel each other out. And if you train right and your dog is a good dog he will know the difference. I have heard of people whose dogs are 'sleeve happy', but have willingly bitten a person without a sleeve, and actually don't target the arm when they're serious. And if a dog who is sport trained does not bite a man in a suit out of the box--well, show him what to do first before you judge him!

Sometimes I think it's all just a way to black out training that they either cannot do or refuse to understand. You have to admit, some of the "useless sport exercises" are goddamned hard to teach! The worst dog people I have ever met are the ones who are too close-minded to realize that there is more than one way to train a dog.