I have a friend with an 18 month old high drive female GSD. She is doing very well in her beginning bite work and is ready to begin the bark and hold. The training director/decoy in his club is recommending a method that I have never heard of and I wanted some input- good or bad. He wants my friend to send his dog to the helper on a long line and when she is in front of the helper, to command her to sit. No correction or limit on the long line. If she sits, he rewards her with a bite; no barking required. If she doesn't sit, my friend is supposed to pull her back with a fuss command and start over. If she bites the sleeve the handler is to out her and then pull her back. I feel that this does not sound as efficient as the traditional methods and will let her get in the habit of 1. not barking 2. biting the sleeve without 'holding'. Any comments?

Cindy,
I have many problems with those techniques.
1) does his dog knnow the out command?
2)the helper is rewarding the dog with a bite just for the sit no bark?
Bad idea.
So he outs his dog from the sleeve, does the helper slip the sleeve or does the dog out on the helper?
A long line is not a bad idea ,I am not sure why he needs it ?
A dog will set himself up to do the bark & hold.What I mean is some dogs simply go into a half way sit to do a bark & hold.Some dogs stand, some hop like rabbits. Sitting in front of the helper to do a bark and hold is a preference ,mine did it automatically and it looks like a half way kinda sit.Who cares as long as he barks and never looses focus..I don't believe in a helper rewarding a dog with a bite for not barking.Not holding the sleeve is a dog that lacked of a good foundation to begin with.Not enough sack work.But that is easy to fix.Is this a show line or working line?
I'll wait for more detail and answer further, I hope that helped you a bit.
http://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r77/cadogancna/

OMG those dogs are beautiful!

Anyway, so sitting is the preference? Do you get more points for that in a trial? I am a beginner when it comes to competition..BTW. It sounds like Cindy's trainer plans to teach the dog a body position and then incorporate the barking later; is that not a correct method?

I would imagine that if the handler isn't on the ball with the line and the dog gets a bite before it's time, that an "out" should be avoided. Anyhow, I don't want to Bogart Cindy's thread, could someone PM me a link to some info for that?

Thanx!

Yes, you want your dog to sit nicely in front, but for me I never taught my dog to "sit" in front of the helper.It would take too long to write out what I did but some judges like to see a dog positioned straight in front of the helper like I said some dogs are so loaded they stand and bark in a low position and some will litterally hop up in the air to the helpers'face without touching the helper but as long as they set themselves up nicely in front of the helper, straight and not move all around, I don't care (for me) if my dog is in a "sit" position.I think it's preference.We have had judges here in Vegas for our trials that had different views each on that .That's when I decided not to concentrate on my dog sitting prefectly in front.I wish I had videos of different ways dog set up in front of helpers for you to see.Maybe someone else will.
I'll try to find some in the mean time...

Bark and hold is easy to teach. I do it on myself since puppy. The dog understands what needs to be done, on a handler for a toy. Implemented in to a Revir: sit nicely in front of the helper,very nice come to the bling exactly in front of the helper, exactly, no kidding the dog is almost touching the sleave but not doing it. Take it out of the blind, in the blind. however you need it, if dog dirty, or not, close, too far, it all can be fixed with repetition.
But the dog will come in clean, and pretty much sit on it's butt and bark and hold. I have very high drive dog, and he can do it.
Happy bark and hold excercises.

Well yes you can teach a dog to do a revere on any object but it all depends what type of dogs you have.My 11 month old will do a revere for anything without conflict, but my other male (older) he is very civil that running into the blind and sitting in front of the "bad guy" was very difficult for him not to bite right away and get dirty.So it all depends on the dog and the drives it has.It can take longer on some dogs, high drive dogs they will do a revere gladly on you standing with a tug but a "helper" hummm not all will be clean right off the bat , good practise and good handling will be in order and many good repetitions.Over all it's about good handling of your dog , knowing what to do and getting the right help.

I have dabbled with this exercise with my own dog doing a B&H on myself; will the exercise deteriorate if she is cued to protect and inanimate object? Say a tire for example?

The reason I ask is because the only help I have within about an hours drive or more might just be something similar to a tire.

We could all teach our dog to sit and bark to get something he wants. What I don't like with the approach of the helper I describe in the first post, is that seems to be rewarding drive reduction. We've spent months encouraging drive for the prey object, the desire to 'play' with the helper and eventually to want to fight with him and now we would reward her for running up and sitting quietly. We must remember the 'whole picture'. The B & H as I understand it, is an exercise to demonstrate control of a dog that really, really wants the helper. The rule book describes it as: 'the holding..is focused, attentive,close, intense, persistent right up to the call-out, self-sure and confident. The barking is continuous, sustained, energetic/enthusiastic, convincing.' This is in the face of a strong, self-confident helper; not just an object. I don't have time to describe the methods that we were taught in my previous club but it requires the dog to have the attitude described above as well as learning to hold himself back- of course the whole exercise comes together in pieces. The judge is gauging the attitude not just the 'behaviors'. If Kevin Sheldahl has time, he can describe the difference very clearly. I'm not sure if this makes sense, but please add your comments/discussion.

What I described above is foundation of b&H.. The word "revir" means sit and bark.. that is all. Later of course we have to deal with different things with various dogs.
I would maybe start on a objeck if there was nothing else but the transition has to be done eventually.
M.

i wouldnt recommend that everyone start teaching hold and bark to their dog for a toy...my personal recommendation. usually leads to a dog that is either sleeve focused, locked in prey, or lacking in intensity...