Hi all,

Another question regarding my 5-month-old ornery little ACD. Now don't get me wrong, I think the fact that he's so bold (bordering on being a jerk) is good and I realize it's typical of the breed. But just the same, I need to be able to take food and objects from him if ever needed.

So right now, if I give him a rawhide chew or heck even a piece of leather, he'll growl and chomp harder on it if you go to take it away from him. I then will tell him firmly "out" and give him a few pops with the lead if he doesn't out immediately. He's actually getting better with the out.

Anyway, am I going about this right? I practice a lot of take it and give it back and leave it and waits with food, toys, etc. His growliness isn't improving, though he WILL give up the object and he has not (yet?) bitten.

I'm thinking that as he ages he is going to challenge me severely no matter what I do, and he'll need to be hung up. This pup is just hard as nails and gritty as heck, which I DON'T WANT TO LOSE... I just want him to respect me as leader and channel this dominance and possessiveness correctly.

Any advice or input? Thanks!

Jennifer, gotta love them ACD's!

What pack leader stuff are you doing? As you said, this is only going to get worse when he reaches maturity. I'd start with the "Nothing In Life Is Free" programme to enforce your #1 status. Also I'd take toy privileges away until he earns those back. Something that worked with my dog (ACD/GSD) was making her sit before eating & release her from the sit anytime from 5-30 seconds. If she broke her sit, the time started over & it'd be for longer. I'd also say in a happy exciting voice "Ooh, what's this," put my hand in her bowl & put an extra-special, gone to heaven type of treat so that she associated me going anywhere near her food with something good. I made sure I did this when she had mostly finished eating, so it wan't as much of a threat.

Anytime I took anything away, ball, chew, etc., I made sure I swapped it for something good then gave the original object back a couple of minutes later. This is probably going to sound strange, but I'd also let her know I was going to do this by saying, "Excuse me, I need to look at this for a minute," in the same tone that I'd use for a human. It was the phrase that let her know I'd take it for just a short period of time, give her a level 10 treat, then give it back to her in a little bit.

Have you read the dominant dog articles & threads here? What about the dominant dog & pack leader DVD's?

Anyhow, good luck with your pup!

Here's a quote from Ed Frawley in a similar post back in October about rawhides (hope you don't mind my quoting you, Ed):

"2- Knock off feeding him raw hides. Throw whats left away.
Not only are they not that good for the dog they are a TRIGGER for aggression and unless you are willing to fight him then you should not be using them. Dogs dont need rawhides."

I think leather falls into the same category, used as a chew "toy".

Not sure if you're doing this but make sure you don't take his food away once you put it down. It's not fair to a dog to keep messing with his food. Alphas don't do that. It will build up the dog's protectiveness over his food and there's absolutely no reason for it.

Sandy, thanks for the clarification. No, I didn't mean to say to pick up the dog's bowl, just put something extra-special in it when she's eating. The swapping's with toys or other objects.

Thanks folks!

As for alpha stuff, I naturally do the NILIF from day 1. He sits before we go out, and I go out ahead of him, turn, and invite him out. He's not allowed to bolt out of his crate, he's not allowed to run amuck and chase the cat, he sits before food, and no once I put his food down I do not take it away from him.

I THINK I'm doing everything right from a general life alpha perspective. He isn't allowed on the furniture and now he doesn't sleep in my room either, he's in the hall. If I want to do his nails, I do them, despite the protesting... Things like that.

I understand about rawhide, but I want to avoid getting into the "it's the rawhide that is a problem" because it could just as easily be a PB filled Kong, or a cooked chicken bone he grabbed out of the trash (hasn't happened, I take precautions, but never say never). My issue here isn't with rawhide. It's with EVERYTHING and ANYTHING he gets ahold of. I don't care if it's the best tasting treat he's ever imagined could exist, if it's going to hurt him I need to be able to take it from him.

Will I stop giving rawhides? Possibly, once I can find something just as appealing for him to chew (instead of my walls) while he's uncrated. But I'd still like to fix the problem. I'm not one for a lot of management. I don't want a dog to be fine if I take things away as long as they're not particularly good things. I want him to submit and allow me to take anything away period.

Aside from that I have no particular attachment to rawhide other than that he NEEDS something to chew when he's out and if I don't give it to him he'll find something else. Rawhide has just been one of the better, longer lasting things for convenience. I have similar problems with raw bones, and they're certainly not something I have to eliminate from his life.

BTW, I stop giving rawhide once the dog is at the point they're eating chunks. I MUCH prefer raw bones, but they're not exactly hygenic on the carpet.

 Quote: Eva Czarnojanczyk

Sandy, thanks for the clarification. No, I didn't mean to say to pick up the dog's bowl, just put something extra-special in it when she's eating. The swapping's with toys or other objects.

Oh yeah, knew what you meant . I do the same thing too, every so often putting an extra yummy in the bowl while he's eating, so my hand near the bowl means a good thing to him.

Sounds like he's just testing you, the little social climber Mine did that every day until she was aboout 7 or so "are you pack leader today or do I get to take over" (rolls eyes). I'd probably continue training the "out/drop it" command. Have you tried kongs for chewing?

Just another thought. When training a command, I'd use level 1 initially. If that was followed by a wilful disobedience, like growling, then I'd use a level 8-10 correction.

 Quote: eva czarnojanczyk

Sounds like he's just testing you, the little social climber Mine did that every day until she was aboout 7 or so "are you pack leader today or do I get to take over" (rolls eyes). I'd probably continue training the "out/drop it" command. Have you tried kongs for chewing?

Wait 7?! Was that 7 MONTHS or 7 YEARS?!?! LOL Good Lord what have I gotten myself into?!

Yep I do use Kongs. In his crate he has a Kong he doesn't have anything he can actually EAT. The thing is, once I fill a Kong with food or treat, it becomes the same as a rawhide and brings about the same response from the puppy. If I don't fill it with food or treat, well, the wall or carpet or couch will do just fine.

I always have him on leash when he's out of his crate, and unless he has a chew (rawhide, bone, or stuffed Kong) he's running around causing trouble. Once he has that chew he's content to lay around on the floor with me and he leaves the cat alone, doesn't eat the house, etc.

I should add that I can approach him and pet him NO PROBLEM when he's eating, chewing, whatever. It's only if I go to "have a look" at whatever he's in possession of that I get told off. In general, if he DOESN'T growl I do not take anything away from him. It's only if he growls that I correct him with the leash, take the item, and make him sit/down to have it back.

Should I take the object away COMPLETELY when he growls? As in, not give it back at all and crate him? Or am I rewarding good behaviour by giving him the object back once he sits/downs?

Yeah dudette, 7 YEARS.

I had to be completely focused & be prepared with a "she who must be obeyed has spoken" type of attitude, especially when enforcing something which she didn't especially enjoy doing. Like nails, lol. I think it also helped that I had an attitude that I wasn't afraid of being bitten by her, that no matter what sort of wilful disobedience or evasion she'd try, the wrath of "me" would descend on her & it just wasn't worth her time even trying.

"Should I take the object away COMPLETELY when he growls? As in, not give it back at all and crate him? Or am I rewarding good behaviour by giving him the object back once he sits/downs?"

I just used to take it for a few minutes & give it back after she sat or did doggy push-ups (multiple, rapid-fire commands), just like you're doing. You're punishing for the growling by taking the object & rewarding the obedience by giving it back.

Enjoy your pup! They're young for such a short time

Jennifer, if you haven't already done so...

Read this: http://www.leerburg.com/puppygroundwork.htm

And/or, if that's too basic...

Order this: http://www.leerburg.com/301.htm