So here's the long story...

I got the Dogtra 1700 a couple of weeks ago and my almost 8 month old Akita, Miko, has been wearing it on and off for almost 2 weeks. She's used to both flat and prong collars and there was no trouble with putting it on or off or anything like that. This is still true even after today's training. I also watched Ed's DVD a few times.

Yesterday I finally turned the collar on and we found what appeared to be a good initial working level for her in less than a minute, which was a "20" ("127" is maximum). That's all we did that day.

Today was the big day. We worked on the "come" command. She's already trained on the long line and we started with that and treat reward. She was her typical slow-to-come self but she's lead-wise and came reliably if glacially. Even with the line on the ground she was coming so I had to back up in the yard away from the line to cause a refusal. "Miko, come!" Nothing. Hah, now was my chance! "Miko, come...no!" Nick. "What the heck was that?" thinks Miko. "Come...no!" Nick. "Oh, he has invented a magic way to correct me, maybe I better wander over there, heck he's got treats today anyway." So she glacially wanders over to much praise, etc. So far, so good. We do this something like three times and after that I needed nothing to get her to come. Still glacial though. So I take her off the lead completely and for the next hour or so I worked in the yard and Miko stood watch and wandered around. Every once in a while I would call her and she would come over. Sometimes it would take a verbal correction ("No!") but no nicks. A miracle! But there were no distractions.

Then something distracted her. "Oh, good, a new opportunity for learning," I think. "Miko, come!" Nothing. "Miko, come...no!" Nick on 20. Still nothing. Bump it up to 30. "Come...no!" Nick on 30. Miko took off running the wrong way. Argh! I gave up right away and just made my way over to where she ended up, at the other end of the yard, got her and we went back in the house, training over.

So now I have a problem that isn't covered on the DVD. How do I ensure that she will come to me instead of run away from the correction? I can't just put her back on the long lead because then she'll just pay attention to the lead. I also can't force her to stay in the yard per se because I have no fence (I've got plenty of room with effectively 15 acres) which is why I gave up so easily, i.e. I didn't want to drive her out of the yard into the woods and create a chasing situation. I don't have a big enough fenced area to go to. The biggest fenced area around is the training pasture at our local dog training facility where they do herding but at 2 or 3 acres it's not big enough for her to really feel like she can escape so she'll just come over to me (BTW, she's going to test for CGC on 15 Jan!)

The whole point is to make her feel like she has no choice but to come, right? Should I have gone to a higher level of correction? Put her back on the lead and create a distraction so big she won't come on the lead? (Children would work well--she loves them! :-) How should I handle this?

Thanks,

S

How solid is she with her other obedience commands? It sounds to me that you need to do more work with the Basic Dog Obedience DVD http://www.leerburg.com/302.htm first BEFORE continuing with the e-collar training...

Scott,

From your post you sound like you got ahead of yourself. The dog should be on the longline when you start the recall training. That way if he gets confused, as yours did, then you can reinforce the recall with the line and make it a positive experience instead of ending on a negative.

All the long line is for insurance. Dont use the line while using the collar, its just there so the dog cant run away. You have to plan for events like this because nothing is foolproof.

Howard

From your post you said you worked with her for over an hour...
That seems like a long time for a training session, especially for an 8 month old pup. In my expererience, lots of really short training seissions(5-7 minutes 4 times aday) work much better.

You saw some success and made the mistake most people make. You quit training and started testing. Distractions are one of the last stages you teach. First you teach the commands on the leash then move them to the collar using the leash. The long line doesn't leave the picture until you are done training under distraction. You, in one lesson, went to trying to teach with the collar under distraction. Bad on you. You saw little gains and assumed things. Finish training, which includes adding distractions when you get desired responses in the yard. You stepped ahead of yourself and you trained for far too long. You got the right idea but watch the video again. I have the video and it's good but you're right, it doesn't really give the novice person a clue on where to go at certain points.

I would recommend a few retriever videos for collar conditioning. The retreiver people were who the e-collars were designed for, so in my opinion have some very useful techniques on collar conditioning dogs. Again this is just my opinion, ED's video is good, but for basic obedience is lacking in the problem solving dept.

Your problem is just eager anticipation. Remember, Train. The word is Train, not Test. Don't test your dog until the training is done. Good luck.

You guys are making too many assumptions and not reading enough.

First, I didn't work with her for an hour, I worked with her for about 10 minutes, then let her wander around the yard for an hour while I worked in the yard. Maybe I called her over to me 3 or 4 times during that hour. She came each time except the last. So I don't see the problem there.

Second, she comes on the long line with no line correction, i.e. she is "line-wise". She comes in the training ring or indoors, i.e. she is "fence" or "wall-wise". How much more training does she need? She's going to probably pass CGC at 8 months old!

Finally, testing implies no reward/no consequences. That's not the case here. She had consequences (correction) and reward (food). You use the level of distraction necessary to allow training to occur. Sometimes it's none. Sometimes it's more than none. That's where I'm at now, because with no distraction she's perfect (but slow).

So, the problem is how do I get her to 100% recall with no line and no fence when I can't use the line or the fence to assist with the e-collar? I can't send an e-collar correction if I don't need one because she is responding to other physical limitations on her freedom, right?

Excellent suggestion on the retriever training material, I will look into that!

Update: I had the opportunity yesterday to have her in the pasture with another dog, a very nice, energetic, male GSD/Akita mix. I took advantage of that to try some additional training. We had the other dog on a lead so he couldn't follow, she was off lead. She is one tough girl. 30 nothing. 40 nothing. 50 got her attention. She twitches a little more than I'd like but no vocalization. I backed it off to 45. We did 3 recalls that way taking maybe 2 minutes total. Each recall took 2 nicks. She started to lose attitude. We let the dogs loose to play for some attitude adjustment :-)

It seems she's so tough she needs a correction that's really bigger than is good for her attitude. Even with no distraction she plain ignores me at 40. At least she seems to be getting the message now and she didn't try to escape this time, not that she could have gone anywhere in the fenced pasture.

I'm also wondering if the contacts are not long enough and that is making it so that I have to run the collar at a setting higher than I really need to? I know my collar fit is consistent at least because I'm getting consistent performance. I'm going to order some longer contacts today just to be sure.

st

Scott,

I've been working with a remote collar recently too. Here are some of my observations, comments:

On my dog, I have to "calibrate" the collar every time I put it on him. I can't count on a given level (I have the same collar you do) affecting him the same from day to day. I think it has to do with the amount of fir under the collar, how tight it is, etc. Sometimes, when he isn't reacting to a setting I think he should, I can readjust the collar and he does react. So getting the right fit every time is important. Still, I always start a session by finding the lowest level he reacts to.

When he gets into drive I have to increase the stim. I found that if I can keep him from going into drive, I can keep the stim down. For example, if he sees another dog and he starts pulling and lunging, I have to increase the stim for it to have an affect on him. If he sees the other dog and I stim him immediately, he looks away, and I can keep correcting him with the low stim and keep him from going into drive. So the more distracted my dog is, the higher I have to set the stimulation.

My dog is wise to the long line, after one correction. He isn't wise to the short line if I'm not holding it, and he isn't fence wise, so I can work on the recall with the collar in my fenced back yard. But I did see the confusion you mentioned. That at first he couldn't figure out the stim was a correction and tried to get away. In fact, he treats the page function that way. One thing I did was take him inside and work with him on the down stay. I could stay close enough to him to both stim him and physically put him back in his place when he broke the down. That seemed to help him make understand that the stim is a correction.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

Thanks for the reply, Rich. I pretty much do the same "calibration", too. I start on 40 now and work up from there, but now in intervals of "5". I've had remarkably repeatable results. I always put the buckle pin of the collar through the same hole which I have marked with a Sharpie marker. She is completely immune to 40 and the pager. At 45 she takes notice. At 50 I get a reaction like a leash correction, but a bit more than I'd prefer. It's amazing how non-linear it is and how sensitive she is to the adjustment. I also ordered the 1" contacts today (standard is 5/8") She's a long-coat Akita with a coat like a Husky or Collie and there's a lot of fur to get through. I'm actually hoping I can loosen the collar a little bit.

Your idea to use another training exercise that is more controlled to reinforce that the stim is a correction is great. I may try that.

We went out in the yard today for pre-dinner pee/play. After pee I took her off the lead. She immediately got a little wary, as if to say "Oh boy, I really like being off lead, but that means if I don't mind I'm going to get zapped!" She wasn't "Velcro dog" but her attitude definitely did change. We did about 3 or 4 recalls with lots of play in between (her favorite is "chase daddy"--she keeps me in shape :-). The first two needed no corrections. The second two did, but only one each. She really hates the whole stim learning process I think, but I suppose it's just another transitional behavior, like "Velcro dog" but different. :-/

Scott,

Because I don't have a good schedule for training, or like to train in the pouring down rain, days can go by between remote collar sessions, and because I still rotate the collars, my dog isn't wise to the remote. Is yours, or do you think she is connecting being off lead with the zaap?

My dog will react to as low a stim as 20. If you have to start at 40, I'm thinking you are correct about the long fur. I'll be interested in hearing if the longer contacts make a difference.