Hello!

First of all I have to say that I have never trained a dog in protection. So please excuse me if this question is against all basic rules of protection training. I live in Norway, and if a dog bites a person in this country, it will be put down. Even if it is to protect its family. So this thought just came to my mind when seeing videos of malinois and gsd's doing muzzle work. Is it possible to train a protection dog with a muzzle right from the beginning? So that if the dog should need to protect its owner, it would have done so without biting, or at least rely mainly on the use of its body?

I guess it is impossible, as the bite would be the instinctive reaction if attacked. But I at least thought it was an exiting idea from an uneducated mind.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts!

Regards,
Richard

richard, i am not speaking about things in your country, but i am speaking of things in general.......i think most people, general public, would be far better off with a dog that has an intimidating bark and is trained to scare people off rather than actually biting. lots of people think they need some kind of monster for a personal protection dog. in some cases they probably do, but for the average folks, a good watch dog who will bark and sounds ferocious will do the job. most people who are up to mischief will not know if the dog will or won't bite. that's like asking, "is the gun loaded or not?"
having a dog that is trained to bite might be okay if the dog is trained properly and if you have good control of the dog, but a dog that is not reliable or gets out of control can be a terrible liability. a great many people do not have access to the kind of training required to produce a reliable PPD. infact, we have all heard stories of protection dogs turning on their owners. not good.
that's why i say, that unless you know what you are doing and have a properly trained dog, the average joe is much better off with a dog that will bark and looks pretty scary. JMHO

Thank you for your answer! yes, I do know that most people does not need a PP dog, neither do I. I have not, and probably will not train a PP dog, ever. In fact, as far as I know it is illegal here in Norway. I own dogs because the joy of it, to have a good friend and hiking partner. my next dog will be a working dog, for use in Schutzhund. So do not misunderstand me, it was just a question out of curiosity.

Regards,
Richard

actually, i saw this as an opportunity to speak up and say something that i feel pretty stongly about. it was not really even directed at you, but more to other readers who might see this post and take some time to think about the role of a dog in protecting home and family.
some folks actually have been threatened and i do understand their need for a real PPD, a biting dog.
in regards to your thoughts about instinctive biting, i would have to agree that a certain percentage of dogs would bite in protecting the home, and a certain percentage would turn tail and run in the face of real danger. i do think it is a pity to putdown a perfectly good dog that bit while protecting his loved ones. just doesn't seem fair.

Hey Richard,

I am not sure you're right about the way the dog bite laws in Norway go. My understanding (and this includes having a Norwegian buddy of mine check around a bit) is that if there is a dog bite on an adult, there is pretty much a guaranteed court case, but this does not equate to the dog automatically being put down. My friend did some reading on the internet about it, and got the sense that in a situation where a dog simply bit someone in defense of its owner, a judge would not simply dictate that the dog be put down. His sense was that in cases where the dog was put down, the owner is generally agreeing with the judge that it's a reasonable thing to do in that case.

I don't have a means to check in detail about this, and both my friend and I could be wrong, of course. I think you might want to double check the details about this with good sources who actually know how the laws get applied.

There's references on the 'net to a law that was proposed (I can't tell if it actually passed) involving serious bites on kids and putting dogs down. There's also one related to.. dogs chasing sheep?

If someone can find out for sure, that would be best.

You may want to "google" Swedish Working Dog Trials. They do some muzzle work.

Richard,
A non-biting dog wouldn't be a protection dog.

Patricia, home invasions, carjackings, muggings etc. happen to the "average people" every single day. Owning a civil dog is a nice layer to have,
AL

From what I have heard, virtually every dog that bites a human being here in Norway will be put down. I do not know if the law says that the dog HAS to be put down, but this is what happens in the vast majority of such cases.

As for the "sheep law": If a farmer catches a dog running after his sheep (and other livestock I believe), he is allowed to shoot the dog right there and then.

It sounds possible that what you are hearing through the grapevine may indeed relate to the statistical majority of dog bite cases, which sounds likely to be comprised of improperly-trained dogs biting kids, mailmen, etc, such as this: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1056047.ece (rottweiler almost kills kid). A bite case involving a dog protecting an owner from an attack, especially a well-trained and obedient protection dog, would have to make up the tiniest fraction of these cases if the statistics in Norway resemble those in the US. Hearing through the grapevine isn't going to be authoritative when it comes to something this specific.

One thing I did find was this, referencing a set of dog bite related laws that was passed in May, 2003:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article554001.ece

It says this:

"The government proposal suggested that dogs that substantially injured a person or other pet could be destroyed if it constituted a continuing danger. The approved law restricts who can execute such dogs and prevents a situation where anyone could kill a dog that bites.

The proposal will raise the punishment for those who do not control their dogs to six months and also makes it possible for courts to prevent people from the right to own a dog."

'We are very satisfied with the new dog law. This is a law aimed at dog owners, not dog breeds,' Storberget said."

This does not sound like a law aimed at obedient, well-trained protection dogs. A good protection dog is not a continuing danger to society.

Only the police and military is allowed to protection train dogs in Norway. Even protection sports is in the shadow-zone according to some. All ringsports are arleady illegal. So my guess would be that a PP dog biting a person in Norway would be put down, as it is an illegal animal.