Hi everyone I am new to the forum and I have a problem with my dog that I hope to get some feedback on. Kobi is a (almost) 4yr, male, Aussie. From show lines, he is placid and sweet tempered with low herding drive. He is more a people-dog than a dog-dog. He has dogs that he likes and interacts well. The other dogs he simply ignores. When meeting new dogs he is well mannered.
My problem is, at about 18 months he suddenly and for no apparent reason took a dislike to young dogs (under 6mon). It is more than the typical older dog teaching manners. He will growl, lung and snap at them on leash. Off leash, I am sure he would attack! It makes no difference if the pup is 'in his face' or totally submissive. It makes not difference if it is a little lap puppy or a large breed.
Since this behaviour started, I have been unable to take him to our dog park (large open field set up) with any consistancy. I either check out the park and leave if there are puppies or if there is only one, I will keep him on leash and keep my distance. As puppies will do, they tend to run up to Kobi. I make him sit, but I have to restrain him as he pulls to get at the pup. I have tried treating him when a puppy is around. Puppies=Good things! I have tried calming him with my voice. I have tried being verbally stern.
Is there anything else you would suggest? Unfortunately the world is full of puppies and it is not easy to find places to go where I can avoid them. I am determined to change this agressive behaviour. Please give me some direstion.

Thanks
Denise

Whoa! Denise, I am a a newbie here but my guess is you had better prepare yourself for a backlash regarding dog parks before you get any sound advice from the more experienced folks. If you listen to Ed's informational podcasts, he will tell you that dog parks are one of the biggest no-no's around. It all has to do with pack structure. What your dog is doing can be considered quite normal. In the wild most packs will find and destroy pups from another pack. It is survival of the fittest and the pack with the most grown up, capable of hunting, dogs will win. I can't explain why he only attacks puppies and not older dogs. That is something you will have to take up with the more experienced folks in the forum. Good Luck!

I also have no experience to offer to answer to your question but it is interesting why certain dogs really DISLIKE puppies. My boss has a female GSD who can't stand anything under 7 months and avoids them like the plague. We were told my puppy's father doesn't like his own offspring. I guess a goofy, tireless, crazy puppy can be as annoying to adult dogs as it can be to adult humans

I'll be interested to see what others say.

It's been my experience that people with dogs who hate puppies were just not socialized with them as young adults. They have nothing to draw on and then they're suddenly faced with...KAPOW! a huge bundle of happy teeth and psycho energy and a totally lack of manners. Even if socailization isn't the cause, i think it's part of the solution.

You said, "Since this behaviour started". Does that mean that there might be a trigger? Did something happen? What happened the very first time you noticed this change?

First you say that off leash you are sure he would attack. Do you know that for a fact? Dogs that are leashed and introduced or around other unleashed dogs are at a dis-advantage and they know this. They have restricted movement and feel they can't defend themselves and will act accordingly. Having your dog on a leash around unleashed dogs is not a good idea (IMO).
Secondly here is a link to why you should NOT be going to dog parks at all:
http://www.leerburg.com/dogparks.htm
They may seem like a good idea in theory, but in reality, if you know and understand how dogs and pack structure works you will realize they are not a good idea at all.
Calming him with your voice? I'll take that to mean you are trying to soothe him with a high voice? He's going to take that as praise and think you are condoning his behaviour. No calming sounds at all, they won't work. He needs to know that YOU are not going to allow that behaviour and he needs to be corrected at a high level if he doesn't listen to you. You are not asking him to stop you are telling him and he has to listen or he gets corrected. This is not something you want to get out of hand otherwise it will just escalate. Actually i just re-read your post and saw that this has been going on since the dog was just over 1 year old and is now 4? So now thats it escalated you want to try and get it under control after 3 years?
That to me says this dog does not see you as pack leader. Sounds like your guy has taken on the role of leader, and you need to let him know that he's wrong.
Read the articles on this website related to dog on dog aggression and packstructure and how to become pack leader.
You also might start trying the NILF program with the dog. Do a search on it, there are a lot of discussions on it on this board and just on the internet in general.

Thank you for your replies. Interesting comparison to dogs in the wild! I never thought of that before in context to my dog - but there could be something there.

There are a lot of different opions regarding dog parks. I haven't listened to the podcast (yet). I would like to say however, given the right mix of dogs in an appropriate 'park', it can be a great place to exercise and socialize your dog. Not all dog parks are created equal. Our particualr park is a LARGE hydro cut. It is not an offical park, but rather an area that is being used by the locals to run their dogs. I have stumbled into 'offical' parks that are no more than a small fenced area. Too many dogs - too small of space in my opinion. There are also dogs that definately do not belong in dog parks of any discription. But to say dog parks are a big 'no, no' is an over generalization IMO. For dogs that are well socialized and well trained it can be great. You have to know your dog and know your park. As much as I love taking my dog to the park, because of his puppy issues, I have to pick my times. It all comes down to responsible dog ownership.

 Quote: Denise Milic

But to say dog parks are a big 'no, no' is an over generalization IMO. For dogs that are well socialized and well trained it can be great. You have to know your dog and know your park. As much as I love taking my dog to the park, because of his puppy issues, I have to pick my times. It all comes down to responsible dog ownership.

I don't think it's an overgeneralization.

No offense meant to you, but your dog is a perfect example of why I would never bring my puppy to a dog park. I don't know who the dogs are, what their issues are, I don't know how experienced the owners are, and where animals are concerned, there is always the element of the unexpected.

How good was the dog park for the first puppy your dog went after? Probably not a good positive experience, regardless of what a responsible dog owner you are.

Thanks Wendy!

ARE YOU SURE HE WOULD ATTACK:
To be honest, I don't know for sure that he would attack to the point of causing injury. He never has injured or drawn blood with any dog. I do know he would charge and put the pup to the ground. When this aggression first started, if Kobi did manage to 'get' at a pup, once he scruffed the pup, he was basically OK with the pup from then on. To me it almost seemed like a dominance thing. However, not being 100% sure that the pup would not be physically injured - not to mention mentally - I cannot take the chance of allowing my dog to assert his dominance. If that's what it is.

LEASHED:
I am aware of leash aggression. The old fight or flight instinct. On many occassions Kobi (on leash) will meet and greet unleashed dogs. He really doesn't seem to have any problem, although I am always very cautious in that situation as I do understand the potential for a fight.

CALMING WITH MY VOICE:
Very good point about interpreting my voice as praising his behaviour! What I actually do his knee down, lift his chin to break his focus and softly repeat "nice puppy, nice puppy". This all stems from the idea of trying to make the association that puppies=good things. Same for giving him treats, when I see a puupy approching. But you are right. That doesn't work.
So I am prepared to change tactics. I will try the 'correction'. He has a good 'leave it' response, which I will use followed by a correction if he doesn't comply. Is that what you are suggesting?

ESCALATING
Yes, I have been dealing with this issue for a while! For over a year I tried to correct it. Out of frustration I simply got to the point where I avoided any contact with young dogs and now I am basically just managing the behaviour. I'm not sure if I can change the behaviour, but I would like to get to a point where I have control over it.

LEADERSHIP:
I guess I would describe myself as a benevolent leader. I do use NILF to some degree. Although going through doors first and things like that I do not enforce. I have been somewhat lenient with Kobi, I will admit. He is so well behaved and complient , except for the puppy thing, that I have not had to be strict or demanding of him since he was very young puppy himself.

I thank you for your input and will take your advice. Thanks again.

Denise

No offense taken Amber. I would not want my pup at a dog park with Kobi either. That's why I don't go when puppies are there. Some dogs are just not dog park material - period! Some owners are not dog park material. But that doesn't mean that they are all bad. Indeed a good dog park can be worth it's weight in gold in an urban setting where the opportunity for dogs to run off leash is limited. As in any situation you have to weigh the risk against the benefit. Not trying to change anyones opinion, just respectfully agreeing to disagree.

Hey Denise,

ok the first thing i notice is that you're saying your getting down on the dogs level and touching his chin and saying soothingly Nice puppy. That is something he is going to see as praise. Any touching when a dog is doing something unacceptable to just going to have the counter-effect. If you're doing that he doesn't know that he's doing something wrong. You don't need to soothe him because he's not afraid of the puppies, he wants to dominate them. No soothing and hands off...lol.

Second thing, has Kobi ever been attacked???? If he has that is more than likely one of the reasons he is acting the way he is. It only takes a dog being attacked once for him to be very very leary around other dogs and put him on the defensive. Especially if he feels you aren't capeable of protecting him ( don't take offense to that). Kind of like a kid who has learned that if he acts tough right off the bat, no ones gonna bother him.

third, yes i do mean that he needs to be corrected for showing aggression/dominance. He should not be doing that at all if he sees you as pack leader. Thats your job and he needs to learn that. But, you have to make sure that you are correcting him at the right time. Doing it after he's attacked is useless and doing it when he's already in full fledged attack mode on his leash (hackles lunging growling) can sometimes be counterproductive and just hype him up more.
Look for the signs that he's about to go off and correct then. Watch his body for stiffening, lips curling, ears straight up, staring, tail up, hackling etc etc....that is when you should be correcting him, before he even gets it totally in his head to dominate. Does he know what NO means? If so, as soon as you see him starting to posture give him the NO command, if he doesn't respond withing a second he gets a correction. Don't repeat the NO, just give the correction. And it has to be hard enough so that it gets through to him that what hes doing is NOT acceptable. If the correction doesn't work, it wasn't hard enough to get through to Kobi. You said he was Austrailian Shepherd I believe. Tough little herding dogs with high prey drive (even though you said he has little drive, its probably more than the average dog) so the correction has to be hard enough to break through to him. As soon as you see him comply and stop the unwanted behaviour praise him. You may need to set up some situations outside of the dog park in order to work on this. That way you can work on the aggression without really putting another dog in danger of being attacked.

Fourth, i think you need to start doing more Pack Leadership training with your guy. You can't become leaniant (as you now see that this behaviour has escelated)with obedience work or NILF or your pack leadership skills. They should be worked on each and every day. If this dog is acting dominant/aggressive he doesn't see you as pack leader (again, don't take offense). Start again with NILF, and making him enter and exit after you etc etc....some dogs you can let them get away with that once you have established your roles, but some dogs, it has to be an everday occurence for them so that it sticks in their mind that you hold the reins.

Wendy

ps: here's a thread i started when I first got Tucker (also dog aggressive)you might find some information in the thread that you can use.

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/92047/page/1#Post92047

Keep at it, and be consistenet and correct at the right time. He'll get the point. But, can i just say that if i were you I would honestly re-think the dog parks. There is such a pack mentality there even and it doesn't matter if its good or bad owners (noticed I said bad owners, there are no bad dogs, just bad owners)You said that you think its good for him, but i think its the root of your problem. He's stressed there, obviously, and I don't think its the right environment for him. Having to find your place in the pack each and every time (because lets be honest, it is a pack) and each time a new dog comes in, there has to be re-structure, and thats where the dominance comes in. Also understand that your dog will not like every dog, just like we don't like every person we come into contact with. And some dogs will never be friendly with other dogs. Thats just something you will have to gauge for yourself.
Your dog can have just as much fun and be just as happy (if not happier) with you playing fetch in a park on a long lead. I live in the city too...but don't venture near the dog parks. I would rather drive a half an hour to a place I could play with Tucker than walk around the corner to a dog park. Your bond with your dog will be stronger too, because now he will know your pack leader and he will realize he doesn't have to worry about anything when you're there.