Hello,

First off I'd like to start off by saying that I am not trying to be a catalyst for any conflicts on the board! That being said, I'd like to state that I have a number of years under my belt working with dogs and minor dog problems. I feel that now I am ready to move on to more difficult challenges in this field. So, I would say that I am pretty good with teaching dogs to do this thing or that thing, but I am still a student of temperament. I am hoping to learn from the experiences and opinions of some of the trainers here that have been successfuly working with aggression and aggressive dogs.

The topic I am curious about is how to effectively deal with the aggression itself. Can aggression be modified and the product of such work be a calm friendly dog or can aggression only be controlled in a manner that minimizes the potential for hazard?

If there's one thing I have learned over the last few years, it is that, like mentioned in the DVD , EVERYONE has an opinion. The problem is finding the opinions that have been tried and tested; obvious to all of you, I'm sure. I don't bring that up to rehash what was mentioned in the video, there is no question that Ed Frawley has the experience that I'm referring to. I have no doubt that the lessons presented in this video work, some of them have already worked for me, but what I'm wondering about is what could not be shown on the video; otherwise I'm sure it would have been far too long to presented on one DVD. Getting back to the point... I have heard "corrections" referred to as supression techniques, meaning that the problem never really goes away it just gets pushed under the rug to resurface later on. The DVD itself even mentiones this. That by correcting a dog for showing aggression may lead to a dog that hides its emotions until it becomes too late and then explodes because the dog had learned that displaying certain "warning signals" had resulted in correction. I have also heard that as a trainer one has to change the dog's opinion of certain triggers that are causing aggression. Oh Fido you are afraid of children and try to scare them away by getting nasty... I'm going to change your opinion of them so that they (children) become toy / treat dispensers and you now look forward to seeing them walking down the street. What's the deal... can aggression be treated or is it stricly a matter of control?

*By initiating this thread I mean no disrespect to Leerburg or the Dominant / Aggressive Dog video. It has been both informative and valuable in the material I have learned from it.

I think you and I have crossed info on this subject or close to .I have a very dominant male , it seems that now and then I get into a fight with him.I have back tied him and I have set him up for it so that I could correct him with a leash while he is back tied, so that if he chooses to go for me he can't.I have corrected him to the point that he gets on the ground and give up.But it always resurface.I have tried to avoid conflict with him but it seems that I am giving in to him.Now his agression is not for dogs it's during a time I am asking him to do something that he does not want to do, and what's funny is that he'll do it but with a growl, almost as if he is challenging me but yet given in.I'll never understand that dog .I did not raise him I got him at a year old.I can't spend my time undoing what others have done to make him so tense like that but It's getting better all the time,but I think he will always be like that, a dominant dog will stay a dominant dog.I don't know that we have the same problem.At least for me I am getting him to do what I ask of him I just wish he'd skip his growls!

I have trained dogs for years, but specifically avoid aggression issues because of the liability associated with such an unpredictable attribute.

Here's what makes sense to me:

In nature the strongest, most dominant animal wins control of the pack or the herd.

These "challenger" animals never stop being dominant, as is evidenced by the fact that the minute there is weakness in the leader, the "runner-up" will attack.

I recently saw a documentary where the dominant buffalo of a herd had been attacked by lions. As it lay bleeding (injured but not lethally...just weakened), another bull came over and started goring the wounded animal and then started humping it. This animal killed the weakened leader and became the mating male. The quest for dominance is strong in some animals and they will always be looking for a way to win, so to speak.

It sounds horrible, but it makes sense. The leader should be periodically challenged in order to ensure that the pack/herd has the strongest leader possible, in order to keep the pack/herd as safe and healthy as possible.

Personally, I don't believe that an animal that has a drive to be dominant will ever give up looking for weakness. As long as you're clearly stronger, you'll be safe. But you'll always be periodically challenged. This is why I like an extremely hard and confident animal...but not a dominant one.

The good news is that there are only a handfull of truly dominant alpha dogs, as opposed to the middle dogs (ones who have dominant tendencies but are content to be dominanted by a stronger leader as well) and more submissive animals. This too makes sense in the natural world: If there were many many wanna-be alphas there would be tons of fighting and injuries instead of food hunting and mating. (For example, In the case of that buffalo documetary I was talking about...there were about 75 animals in this herd and only one animal seriously challenged the sick leader.)

I know there's a difference between buffalo and wolves (dogs) but from what I have read and seen personally in my time studying timber wolves, the same principle applies.

*It is my opinion that when you have a really dominant dog and you "train" it to like kids by feeding it food, you're really just confirming to the dog that he's dominant. I mean, you're safe with a dominant animal as long as you never challenge him and just feed him and do whatever he wants. Is it safe? I don't believe so. Again, this is just my opinion and maybe others feel differently, but I wouldn't test it on my child.

Much as I don't need a major bad-ass, I'd rather have a dominant dog than a submissive urinator!!

 Quote: amber morgan

*It is my opinion that when you have a really dominant dog and you "train" it to like kids by feeding it food, you're really just confirming to the dog that he's dominant. I mean, you're safe with a dominant animal as long as you never challenge him and just feed him and do whatever he wants. Is it safe? I don't believe so. Again, this is just my opinion and maybe others feel differently, but I wouldn't test it on my child.

Much as I don't need a major bad-ass, I'd rather have a dominant dog than a submissive urinator!!

Fully agree and beautifully written but is that quote to me about the kids?
One thing I don't take chances on are with my kids, when it comes to my dominant dog, I have never had an incident and I have to say that (yaggo) has never showed any agression towards them but I believe about being overly cautious as supposed to be careless.And you're right a dominant dog will always be one, they are born to the Alpha, unfortunely no room for him to be the one in our pack

Bradley,
I am not a trainer, but an owner of an aggressive dog. To the extent that her aggression is fear based, it can be modified by distracting her, feeding her treats, but where she is trying to establish dominance, I don't think that is the appropriate response. The truth is that I cannot read this dog's mind. I have chosen to deal with her by establishing my control, distracting her with treats when practical, and keeping her far away from other dogs in general, and preventing anyone from touching her. I do not try to suppress aggression, but more redirect her attention to other things, listening to me, getting a treat, etc. In other scenarios, where I feel she is trying to pull rank, I am very abrupt with her, and keep her in line.

I didnt think it was for me but I thought I would clarify my side on that issue with kids anyways,But I agree with you on the kids and treats

Angelique,
How old is your male? And how often does he "challenge" you?
The reason I ask is because my female Mal who is 15 months is a challenger complete with audible protests like your male. Has it gotten longer between challenges as he got a bit older and realized that challenging you will get him nowhere but corrected? Or with age, size and maturity has it gotten more frequent?
I am just trying to see what I have to look forward to with my little girl since she is growing into a dominant bitch..hee hee

He'll be 4 in April.
Just tonight I was looing at his gray on his muzzle and he growed the whole time but lets me ,I have gone to the point to challenge him more to see if he would really bite me and he won't ,just growls, I don't get him sometimes.We are agreat team, I just wish I could relax him a bit about things.Oh and I don't know if your does this but he'll growl at me for let say checking his feet and as soon as I let go of his foot he wants to leave but he leaves with his tail high
and almost in a honery fashion.

Wow some great points!

Amber that's a very interesting perspective and does seem to make a lot of sense doesn't it... I am really enjoying where this discussion is going so far.

I wonder though, for fear aggression, would one use the same style of approach as you would on dominant aggression?