Reading another site I came across Mike M who prefers that the dog use his canine teeth on the street and says a full grip will get your dog killed it kind of makes sense, any info?

JHC wrote: Reading another site I came across Mike M who prefers that the dog use his canine teeth on the street and says a full grip will get your dog killed it kind of makes sense, any info?

***** I’m confused I guess. Doesn’t a “full mouth bite” involve the canine teeth??? And how will that get a dog killed on the street???

Oh how I have always liked this argument. I used to hear "I am not afraid of any dog, just wait until they bite and give it a karate chop to the neck." I used to call them bait. I lived along way from an aggitator and they would always volunteer to help me tune up our GSD for crowd control. I have never seen anybody's eyes sooo big. They were generally trying to back away without soiling themselves to think about a "karate chop" to anything.

I am curious though, several people seem to think a dog with a good solid bite is vulenrable. I don't remember ever hearing of a PSD being killed after making the bite on a subject by the subject. I know Renee keeps good track of service dog deaths, maybe she can help. I have seen alot of dogs take people down from a first hit and the officer is usually close enough to shoot the person if they try.

I have always liked to have big dogs to work with. My preferance is to see the dog put the bad guy on the ground or at least be able to keep them off balance. I know it sounds good that if the dog is hanging on your arm that you could use the other hand to injure the dog, but in reality the person will be in a lot of pain and busy trying to get the dog off. There is a huge psychologic component to this also, a dog comming fast and serious is a scarry thing, especially if you don't have any protection. I have been bitten often enough to know that I can still function through the pain, but not everybody has that prescence of thought ot function in that situation.

You can train yourself to maintain, but it usually takes experience, and who wants to take a few unprotected bites from a good dog?

I personally believe the full grip is no good. If you need protection from someone, there is a good chance that person is not normal everday citizen joe, who is afraid of dogs. The world is full of all kinds of people. Some are just nuts. Others may be high on drugs; look at Rodney King...had a bunch of officers beating the hell out of him, yet he still kept getting up because he was doped up. The dog may not intimidate them, and if one is hanging off their arm, so be it. They have a gun or knife, your dog is shot or stuck. End of story.

In nature, dogs hunt...they sink their canines in, tear a hole. Release and allow the blood to flow, the wound to open. Retarget if necessary, inflict another wound, until their prey is dead. Can cause a person to go into shock. The rear teeth are meant to crush bone as they eat their prey.

In my opinion, regarding the size of a dog, big is not necessarily better, except for the intimidation factor. In fact, I personally would not want a large dog. But that is another discussion.

Sport corrupts the dog, takes it away from its natural abilities. This is what I do not understand. The dog is twisted, forced to do as the handler wants, for points. Yet it is supposed to measure ability, for workability and breeding purposes. Yet many trainers acknowledge sport is not really a good measure for a working dog.

Guess what folks - dogs can track, dogs can bite. They can defend. Then can run agility courses. They don't need to be taught these things. Handlers do. WE need to learn how to work a dogs natural, God given abilities. Instead they are forced to do whatever the committee came up with that will allow the handler to go home with a trophy. Whoo-hoo! Maybe once the bad guy takes out your dog, you can throw the trophies at him.

Ok Bill you got my curiosity up. What would you advocate for training?, I have heard what you don't like, but what would you advocate? No training at all? How will you control the dog and get them to out? what do you base your opinion on? I have seen the current system work and have never heard of a subject killing a dog during a bite. I am asking those I know that have done the work years to see if they have ever heard of it.

I advocate working with the dog through a bond, and utilizing its natural abilities. The dog will track, and air scent when it does so. I don't force a dog to nose down, follow food bits. I do not use food to entice them for anything, nor do I play tug. For correct behavior, I simply use praise, which I will never run out of. No need to buy a fancy vest I see in training catalogues for carrying treats.

I once asked a person training for FEMA certification for SAR work about treats and what about when the victim doesn't have them or the dogs tug toy for reward? He stated that it is "kind of like a variable reward system, sometimes he gets it, sometimes he doesn't." Well, I later watched him try to run a two victim search in a pile, but with only one tug toy available. The dog only cared about the one with the toy, and left the other. Shows a problem with toy reward. Variable my ass, that dog knew there was no reward, so it didn't do the work.

I use a lead and a prong. I have established a bond with my dog. At this time, a verbal correction often suffices. If not, I will revert to the prong until it does. In bite work, if I tell the dog to out, it'll out. Simple exercises can lead to these things. No need to blow a dog off with an electrical shock.

An example I have written before: you want a dog to find an article? Walk your dog past a dropped glove in your back yard. I bet the dog indicates on it, at least looks at it, maybe even investigates it further. Praise it for doing so- "Good find it!" and mean it. No need to leave a food trail to an item. That still doesn't make sense to me.

I do not have time nor the space here to write step by step how I go about what I do. Take time to understand the dog, think about how they are in a natural sense, communicate with it, and maybe your eyes will open. Its an amazing thing.

Do I claim to be all knowing about dogs? That I fully understand them? No, and I'd be a fool to think I did. But I will spend the rest of my life learning, and if people will listen, passing along what I have learned.

Dogs are great creatures, and in my opinion, God's best gift to man. I also think we take too much advantage of their loyalty and devotion to us.

I've heard the big tales of the guy who's going to karate chop the dog... I have also heard that a dog will inflict so much pain during the full mouth bite that the suspect can't do a thing back to the dog.

Both statements are full of holes. Yes the above average joe will stop when that big dog clamps down on him as would anyone with an ounce of sense... but if you add enough narcotics & enough rage to the mixutre you can very well have a dead dog. I know of one such instance.

I have to agree with Bill, once I stopped trying to get the dog to track my way, to protect my way... communication came a lot easier. I don't mean you just hang out alongside the dog praying he doesn't make a mess of things. Through various communication exercises... you very much call the shots. The dog learns to take his direction from you. He knows his corrections & his praise comes from you. And by allowing him to use his tools naturally he is a much better tracker, protector, & obedient dog.

I think Bill and Rob have excellent points. I've never tried training a dog this way - no toys or treats for a reward. I'm finding its unlike anything I've ever experienced - and I only know a fraction of the basics. Its taking me a little longer than conventional methods, but the rewards are great. I love it.

There was also a police k9 killed in my hometown as a result of biting and not letting go. He was stabbed to death with the free, weaponed hand.

Last night I had asked someone in an e-mail if they were aware of any stories of PSD deaths due to the full mouth grip. I am aware of such events happening, but admit to not having personal experience.

Below is her response:

"One of my close friends is a police K9 officer. His dog was the first Mal I ever met. I now know the dog should have been trained differently. The full mouth bite & hold was the way this dog was trained. I have watched this dog train for many, many hours (as I was the tag-a-long kid as my friend was older) & constantly quesitoned him about this. The dog always bit deep & held the bad guy.

One night when they were called out, the dog grabbed the arm of an attacking suspect. He was holding the man's arm when the suspect hit him over the head with a tire tool. It appeared the suspect was high & in a rage. The dog died at the scene.
This same officer's 2nd dog was shot while doing a bark & hold in a warehouse. "

Bill, you seem to think on the same line as the person I got my info from, war dogs would have no time to be looking around for a reward, My dog seems very happy to do things for ME and when it's the right time I do things for HIM like playing ball, I think there are two ways to skin a cat, oops! LOL!