Hello there.

This is my first post. I am collar conditioning my dog and just wanted some support and to know that I'm doing the right thing and it's working ok. (Or not, as the case may be.)

A bit of background: She is a 2.5 yo female hunting dog who will be used mostly as an upland bird dog. She has been almost entirely positively trained until now and I have a very good understanding of learning theory (if I can say that!). I have used the clicker a lot with her and this was great for starting behaviours and teaching them in depth. I have used a prong on her, but only for walking at heel and not for any other behaviour. I have also used a remote citronella collar on her prior to this, for corrections at a distance, such as steadiness at the flush or for blanking recalls. I have also on occasion scruffed her. But the training has been about 90% positive reward based until now.

I have turned to the ecollar because her obedience is excellent in almost all situations, but I have found that she enjoys scent and hunting so much that this is starting to outweigh the tasty recall treat she knows I have for her, and she is choosing not to come immediately or not to come right back to me, in order to continue hunting. This has happened a total of perhaps 4 or 5 times, ever, always in very highly distracting hunting situations with other dogs and people around. I guess this just isn't good enough for me. I can see this only getting worse the more that she gets into the hunting. I felt that I could go no further in the reward hierarchy - my treats can't get any tastier - and I have drilled the recall every single day of her life (successfully) in training, so the only other thing is a remote punishment if she blanks me.

The other issue I wanted to address with the ecollar is that when the ground is wet or, I don't know, maybe smells of something I have never been able to determine, she will not sit with her butt right down on the ground but decides to hover with it off the ground half a foot. I push it back down, but it slowly rises back up. She is so precious!!! The problem with this is that it slowly rises so much that it often then becomes a stand. I have really wrestled with her on this one, but when I use force and push her down she allows herself to be manipulated into position passively, but if I then repeat the command she again refuses. She will refuse to be lured by a treat also, no matter how tasty, when this happens and will prefer to decline the treat to keep her butt off the ground. Inside or on dry ground and often on wet ground at other times there is no problem with it and her butt goes right down.

Anyway, these are the only 2 behaviours I feel I need the collar for.

I am using mainly the Dobbs method as it seems to be widely used by pointing dog people and it made the most sense to me in terms of learning theory, but I have adjusted it because I didn't want to teach that many commands with it - just the recall and sit. I have a TT Sport Combo G3.

Ok, well I am on Day 2 of CC at the moment.

On Day 1 we had 4 short sessions around the house on recall. I had her on a long line for recalls. I found her working level - she seemed to give no sign of anything until I got to a level 3 on the dial and then she whined, so I started there. I used continuous, pushed the button, called her and immediately let go when she started to come. I was/am still rewarding her with the usual tasty treats when she reaches me. By the 4th session of Day 1 I moved to momentary nick as I called. I let her escape the stim the last 2 times of the day.

On Day 2 I used the yard outside and a parking lot outside my place. And did basically the same. I plan to use a park near my place tomorrow.

Here are my questions:

I am not sure how to determine what her motivation is - is she coming because she wants the treats, or is she coming because she wants to avoid the stim? How can you tell, with a dog which has been previously trained to a high level using reward based methods, what its motivation is and when it has twigged that coming to you switches it off? I mean, you are not going to see the same behaviour change as you would in a dog which didn't know the behaviour that well or wasn't proofed against many distractions. Or does this not matter because, through repetition, the stim is turning off when the dog starts to come and so the dog will learn, even if the motivation starts out being to get the treat?

I can see by the look in her eyes that she is feeling the stim, but it seems to be distracting her or throwing her ever so slightly, just for a split second, whilst she begins to come. I mean, I feel it's slightly slowing down the beginning of the recall at the moment. Is this normal?

I will keep you guys updated on how we do but any thoughts or feedback would be appreciated in the mean time. Many thanks.

I don't know alot about e-collars or hunting but I do know learning theory. Using the escape method with the ecollar is not th most effective way to train. Yes, it works, but it breaks down your dog and relationship. You went from 90% positive to one of the worst forms of punishment training.
I think you may want to whip out those treats and clicker again and recondition/reshape the sit the way you want- Only rewarding for the sits that are correct. Pull her out of the position and verbal correct for sits that are not a correct sit after the command. If she continues sometimes, is it really that important if she doesn't want her dainty butt in the mud?

For the recall, I would give a verbal correction upon noncompliance and then stim her. Reward her for her return. Use the ecollar like an invisible leash and stim when you would have given a leash correction.
She is currently coming to avoid the stim- that's how the escape training works. The reason she is coming is in the method used, not the way your dog was previously trained. There is no motivation involved except relief from her pain. The treat really means nothing to her at that point and it not reinforcing her coming. She is coming to you to make the stim stop. ouch.

Just my thoughts on how your dog will benefit the most from the ecollar.

Hi Alison

I did a lot of research before I chose to use the ecollar and read a lot of different methods. With all due respect, using the escape method _is_ the most effective way to train according to several leading proponents of the ecollar (I'm not arguing they are right, I'm just saying there are people out there with far more experience than me, and who have written books on learning theory, who state this. "How Dogs Learn" by Pamela Reid is just one example.

I have tried what you've suggested - using the clicker for the sits, but you're missing the point: The sit is perfect inside or on dry ground, there is nothing to shape. And outside she really would rather not have the treat than let her butt touch the ground. Yes, it is incredibly important for hunting and for steadiness reasons that her butt is on the ground and does not move. Standards deteriorate quickly and if I accept a hovering sit, then a stand, soon it will be a stand and a step and so on. It is an absolute standard.

The problem with your suggestion - a verbal correction on noncompliance and then stimming her - is that because she won't have been collar conditioned, she is not going to understand where the stim came from. She will think the ground bit her. If she is chasing something and I need to give her a high stim for it to register, she may bolt or react in an unpredictable way, because she has not been taught how to turn the pressure off. She also won't get any faster with her sits, because she won't be trying to avoid anything.

Of course, once she is collar conditioned, I will use only a nick for noncompliance on giving a second command. But that can only happen once we have got through this stage of collar conditioning.

Lastly, I know you are trying to disillusion me with what you say here:

"The reason she is coming is in the method used, not the way your dog was previously trained. There is no motivation involved except relief from her pain. The treat really means nothing to her at that point and it not reinforcing her coming. She is coming to you to make the stim stop. ouch"

But actually it would be great if what you say is the case because it would mean she has learnt how to turn the stim off and that the collar conditioning is working.

With all due respect, I don't know how you can say you "don't know a lot about ecollars" and then give me advice on "how your dog will benefit the most from the ecollar"!!

 Quote: joby smithson

I did a lot of research before I chose to use the ecollar and read a lot of different methods. With all due respect, using the escape method _is_ the most effective way to train according to several leading proponents of the ecollar (I'm not arguing they are right, I'm just saying there are people out there with far more experience than me, and who have written books on learning theory, who state this. "How Dogs Learn" by Pamela Reid is just one example.

I suggest you read The Theory of Corrections In Dog Training . About half way down you will notice a section titled "Escape Training Corrections with a Remote Collar"

Thanks. That was interesting. I don't think that method is for me though.

I have not used any corrections on this dog in the past as a routine method of training. No prong corrections for a behaviour, no leash jerk corrections. So I cannot "replace" leash jerks with ecollar stim, she will not interpret that as a correction or understand it. She will just believe she is getting random pain and not understand why and become very passive and freeze, as has happened with the rare occasion I've tried any sort of punishment in the past.

I'm sure that method works for some, it's just not for me.

An update: Day 3. We went to the park today and had a CC session there. I noticed a definite urgency at the beginning of the recall. I am sure most of the recall's motivation is coming from a desire to get the treat, which she ravenously devours, but the very initial motivation to move is coming from the desire to avoid the stim. I plan to have one more session in the field tomorrow and then I think we're done with the recall. I am very relieved to be able to just use nicks on the very rare refusals and to nearly have finished this stage.

Joby, since you already have an e-collar, PLEASE do yourself & the dog a huge favor & get Ed Frawley's e-training DVD...

http://www.leerburg.com/318.htm

His method is NOT about conditioning your dog to the collar via escape training, avoidance training OR using the continuous stim button <:-( You will learn how to do it the right (most humane!) way & your dog will THANK you, believe me <:-)

Joby, not only do I think you don’t want to hear any comments about the CORRECT way to use an e-collar, but you also aren’t going to get very many people on this Board who support the way you use yours. Just mentioning this in case you feel the need to suggest/convince/argue…

Ummm, ok....

I know this is the Leerburg discussion forum, but I didn't think that meant that everyone uses the Leerburg methods. I thought although there would be a group of Leerburg adherents, there would also be others using other methods. Perhaps that was a silly assumption though and everyone here uses Leerburg.

If that's the case, please can someone point me elsewhere to another forum on the net where various different methods are used and no one method is held to be the best and "correct", so that I can get help and support from others using a method alike to mine. Thanks.

Candi - I have an idea from reading the above link which someone posted and from reading around this site what the Leerburg method is and I'm sorry but I don't agree with it or think it is appropriate for my dog.

I don't want to get into an argument about which method is best or why, because that's not very constructive for me right now. I've read more than enough various different methods, which all ascribe to be the "best" and the "fairest" and so on, and because they are all equal in this respect and in their dissing of alternative methods, I have had to choose which one to use. I've made that choice and I'm not about to switch around half way through collar conditioning.

I'd be really interested to hear from and have help from people using a similar method to mine, if there are any on this board. And if there aren't, please redirect me elsewhere to another forum.

Thank you.

Whatever Joby <:-( but from what I read in your posts, you have virtually NO idea what the Leerburg e-training method is all about -- That's a real shame for your dog, IMHO

And just for the record, it isn't Ed Frawley who claims his remote training technique is "the correct" way OR the "only way" that works -- Kudos about his method being the best one come from folks like me who study his videos thoroughly and USE them on our dogs <:-)

Why in the world would we point you to another forum that possibly uses inferior and/or outdated and/or less knowledgeable training techniques?